The Renewal Blind Spot Costing Brokers Their Clients with Jeff Wilcoxon

Jeff [0:00:00]: The industry has been focused on the sale and less focused on what happens after the sale and letting passive renewal take hold as opposed to really truly being there and advising the customer from post bind through renewal and through quite frankly their whole life.

Callan [0:00:16]: Welcome to the Insurance Growth Lab, where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance industry.

Callan [0:00:24]: I´m Callan Harrington founder Flashgrowth And in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers and Sure tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale to channel or solved a specific growth challenge.

Callan [0:00:41]: It's no fluff just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:46]: Jeff, I'm excited to have you on and VIU by Hub just released a new survey, and I think some of this are pretty interesting.

Callan [0:00:59]: Before we get into those, and honestly, not even so much the stats are interesting, but how you guys have built processes to address some of those.

Callan [0:01:08]: I think are very interesting.

Callan [0:01:08]: I'm excited to dive into it today.

Callan [0:01:10]: So.

Callan [0:01:10]: Before we get there, Tell us about Santa bell Island.

Jeff [0:01:15]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:01:15]: So it's an interesting story.

Jeff [0:01:17]: I mean, so my grandparents had this house in San Island for twenty five, thirty years.

Jeff [0:01:22]: And my grandpa bought it in his retirement back when you could buy real estate a low price there.

Callan [0:01:27]: Yeah.

Callan [0:01:27]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:01:28]: Fast forward to him and his nineties.

Jeff [0:01:29]: See have luckily lived to be ninety eight years old.

Jeff [0:01:32]: Ninety eight.

Jeff [0:01:32]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:01:33]: Man.

Jeff [0:01:33]: Good so.

Jeff [0:01:34]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:01:34]: Good genes.

Jeff [0:01:35]: Yeah.

Callan [0:01:36]: Yeah yeah.

Jeff [0:01:36]: So the...

Jeff [0:01:37]: My mom and her siblings had to start getting more and more involved in this house.

Jeff [0:01:41]: And helping them just kind of manage it and understand the finest sweater.

Jeff [0:01:44]: Well, one of the first things they learned when they were looking at the protection for it was it didn't have hurricane or flood insurance.

Callan [0:01:54]: I shouldn't be laughing this hard.

Callan [0:01:55]: Only in an insurance podcast.

Callan [0:01:57]: You hear that you're like, oh, man.

Jeff [0:02:00]: And this was before the two hurricanes hit Sand.

Jeff [0:02:03]: They sold this house the January before the first hurricane.

Jeff [0:02:05]: So he went ten years or so without much action in the gulf, and basically said, I'm gonna self insure this thing.

Jeff [0:02:14]: But once the kids started to get involved.

Jeff [0:02:16]: They're, like, wow.

Jeff [0:02:16]: We better get this taken care of.

Jeff [0:02:17]: So they convinced him to add a layer of of protection.

Callan [0:02:21]: Yeah.

Callan [0:02:21]: He got to live till ninety eight and he lived as walking man in the world.

Callan [0:02:26]: Because the appreciation over that time one was probably absolutely insane.

Callan [0:02:30]: And there was nothing ever to d track the appreciation because nothing happened until just after.

Callan [0:02:37]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:02:38]: And then you're...

Jeff [0:02:39]: And you go wow.

Jeff [0:02:39]: I mean, we're gonna talk about this today.

Jeff [0:02:42]: Who was watching out for him?

Jeff [0:02:44]: Who was giving him advice who was telling what for the right protection Have was, but whatever it was.

Jeff [0:02:48]: He was I mean, he grew up in the great pet depression.

Jeff [0:02:50]: And he was born in Kansas.

Jeff [0:02:52]: He grew up in that greatest generation where you pinched fe.

Jeff [0:02:56]: And apparently, that risk was one he was willing to takes.

Callan [0:02:59]: You know it's funny.

Callan [0:03:00]: When we were kinda talking about this, and I near the full story at that time.

Callan [0:03:03]: I was thinking, and we're talking about somebody was advising on.

Callan [0:03:06]: But what if it was?

Callan [0:03:07]: Just some rogue age agent I was like, you don't need it.

Callan [0:03:10]: You don't need it.

Callan [0:03:11]: We don't have...

Callan [0:03:12]: The hurricanes never hit this area.

Callan [0:03:14]: And then and then that guy was a hundred percent right, and then All of his clients were just a mess after.

Jeff [0:03:21]: Well, unfortunately, he passed away the...

Jeff [0:03:23]: Right after for the Thanksgiving before that.

Jeff [0:03:24]: And, fortunately, for my mom and her siblings, they didn't have to go through a hurricane rebuild because they sold the house two or three months before the hurricane.

Jeff [0:03:31]: That's luck.

Jeff [0:03:33]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:03:33]: Is what that is.

Callan [0:03:34]: For sure.

Callan [0:03:34]: So for...

Callan [0:03:36]: Our listeners and aren't as familiar with VIU by Hub.

Callan [0:03:38]: And so VIU by Hub, the digital arm of Hub International.

Callan [0:03:43]: I think everyone probably heard of Hub International that that listens to this podcast.

Callan [0:03:47]: If they don't, they'll probably her who they are pretty soon.

Callan [0:03:51]: So if you launched the twenty twenty two, I think VIU really interesting.

Callan [0:03:54]: Right?

Callan [0:03:55]: You guys are in six different verticals, and then you've had a number of very successful acquisitions.

Callan [0:04:00]: One of those insured, which pushed you very heavily into the the bank Credit Union partnerships.

Callan [0:04:05]: They brought over a hundred themselves, which...

Callan [0:04:08]: I think a lot of people have had note...

Callan [0:04:09]: Known.

Callan [0:04:09]: I knew certainly knew about insured tossed for a very long time.

Callan [0:04:12]: I think they were Church house has been very successful for a while.

Callan [0:04:15]: Wouldn't it probably one of the best embedded users.

Jeff [0:04:18]: Really had a great model and have a great model for that that vertical for sure.

Callan [0:04:23]: And you guys are now adding seventeen hundred households a week.

Callan [0:04:26]: So you're doing some some real volume.

Callan [0:04:28]: Yeah.

Callan [0:04:29]: That's incredible.

Callan [0:04:30]: And so today, what I'm really excited and I kinda teased this out a little bit.

Callan [0:04:35]: You guys did a survey, and Some of these stats are really interesting, and I'm pretty excited to dive into it.

Callan [0:04:42]: So I'm gonna read this one off here.

Callan [0:04:43]: So your survey found that eighty eight percent of policy holders want their provider to proactively flag when coverage no longer fits their life.

Callan [0:04:51]: But fifty six percent haven't heard proactively from their provider in over a year, and twenty one percent say it has never happened.

Callan [0:05:00]: When you first saw those stats.

Callan [0:05:03]: What what did you think?

Jeff [0:05:05]: We chartered that research with Paris poll with, what, two thousand, I think individuals, and we did that because we had seen these signals in the market.

Jeff [0:05:14]: We're kind of building our business toward that.

Jeff [0:05:16]: We're like, we should probably validate it.

Jeff [0:05:17]: So we weren't surprised, but maybe surprised by the the magnitude of the numbers that you just rattled off.

Jeff [0:05:24]: I mean but it's a real thing.

Jeff [0:05:26]: The industry has been focused on the sale and less focused on what happens after the sale and letting passive renewal take hold as opposed to really truly being there and advising the customer from post bind through renewal and through quite frankly their whole life.

Jeff [0:05:40]: So it was surprising to see for me, like, eighty eight percent is a big number in any survey.

Jeff [0:05:46]: But unfortunately, not surprising industry wide that we don't take as much care haven't made as much investment post sale as we have on the top of the funnel.

Callan [0:05:58]: It's an interesting topic because I gotta empathize with the smaller insurance agency that has couple thousand personal lines clients, and it can become very cost prohibitive I know I'm probably get killed for this.

Callan [0:06:17]: But it's the reality.

Callan [0:06:18]: And that's why you see it's, like, the dirty secret is if you're under fifteen thousand in premium.

Callan [0:06:22]: The odds of you getting much love from the agent at all.

Callan [0:06:26]: Except what of questions asked or things like that.

Callan [0:06:29]: Much proactive advice seems to be as a whole fairly uncommon.

Callan [0:06:35]: And so one of the things why I wanna dive into that is because you guys have done you guys have added you're adding seventeen hundred households per.

Callan [0:06:43]: It's an insane amount.

Callan [0:06:44]: And I don't think that all seventeen hundred of those

Jeff [0:06:47]: are or are fifteen thousand and above and print not.

Callan [0:06:50]: So what are you guys doing to try to improve those types of numbers.

Jeff [0:06:58]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:06:58]: Well, think about what our role is were a broker.

Jeff [0:07:01]: Right?

Jeff [0:07:01]: A broker exists to represent the consumer and their needs and make sure they have the right protection over time.

Jeff [0:07:07]: Right?

Jeff [0:07:08]: And so what we're really doing is we're we're looking at that and saying, you're right.

Jeff [0:07:13]: We you do...

Jeff [0:07:13]: We we're out also not just our portion of hub international VIU by Hub.

Jeff [0:07:17]: We're an omni channel digital broker focused on personal lines and transactional lines.

Jeff [0:07:22]: Right?

Jeff [0:07:22]: So we're By design, we set out to solve exactly the problem you just described, which is to be there throughout the entire life cycle across the whole value chain for our customers despite the rest of the industry not doing so.

Jeff [0:07:37]: And so some of the things that we're doing, one, we had the at the start, be very, very good at offering choice and neutrality, two things that we think are essential to have customers even walk in your door and commit to being part of your brokerage or your agency.

Jeff [0:07:51]: But now we're, we've got that figured out.

Jeff [0:07:55]: We're taking a step beyond that, and we're starting to look what happens after the sale.

Jeff [0:07:58]: And we think that a lot of the magic that's gonna happen a lot of the opportunity to differentiate is gonna be how we treat customers and interact with customers.

Jeff [0:08:05]: Post behind.

Jeff [0:08:07]: And so that's where we're leaning in is they're saying they're not hearing from their agent.

Jeff [0:08:12]: They're gonna hear from us, but they're gonna hear from us in the contextual relevant moment, and they're gonna hear from us.

Jeff [0:08:16]: We're not gonna bombard them, we're not gonna annoy them.

Jeff [0:08:19]: Let's honest.

Jeff [0:08:20]: I mean, when do you wanna hear from your your agent ever, occasionally?

Jeff [0:08:23]: What's your your experience?

Callan [0:08:26]: Well, so a couple things on this.

Callan [0:08:27]: I want to know the things that I'm more or less looking for is, okay.

Callan [0:08:31]: What's what's going to be habit.

Callan [0:08:33]: I just wanna avoid surprises more or less.

Callan [0:08:35]: Or is there something I'm not thinking about.

Callan [0:08:37]: And, honestly, the biggest surprise I want to avoid numb.

Callan [0:08:40]: This is because I was a licensed agent, and I'm in insurance, I don't wanna be surprised at the time of a claim that I was under insured in a particular area where I should have had adequate coverage, And now, especially when I think about, like, business insurance.

Callan [0:08:55]: Like, was there something that I wasn't aware of or didn't have or should have had or whatever that might be.

Callan [0:09:02]: But I would say the thing that I'm curious about though is most elite brokers.

Callan [0:09:08]: I would say they do a very good job on on retention.

Callan [0:09:11]: What I'm curious though is how are you able to make it both profitable.

Callan [0:09:16]: And what are those triggers?

Callan [0:09:18]: What are the triggers that you're looking for?

Callan [0:09:20]: Because you are right.

Callan [0:09:21]: Yeah.

Callan [0:09:21]: I don't necessarily wanna hear from my agent, like, every month per s or or, you be every other month, What are the triggers that you you guys are looking for that make it relevant to reach out?

Jeff [0:09:32]: Several years ago, the technology didn't even exist to consider this.

Jeff [0:09:35]: Right?

Jeff [0:09:36]: So now we have more ability to capture insight both through our own interaction with the customer and our partners.

Jeff [0:09:42]: Remember most of our customers are coming through partners leveraging their brands through embedded.

Jeff [0:09:47]: So those partners have some insight around when their life might change or when they might have a need.

Jeff [0:09:52]: So we're trying to make sure that we have that insight and that we act on it.

Jeff [0:09:56]: Right?

Jeff [0:09:56]: And so, again, five years ago, could we do that well?

Jeff [0:10:00]: Was the data even able to flow?

Jeff [0:10:01]: Did Ai even exist.

Jeff [0:10:03]: Right?

Jeff [0:10:03]: No.

Jeff [0:10:03]: So now you can get different types of insight, and you can act on it?

Jeff [0:10:07]: Without to your point about the smaller agencies, a human necessarily having to take care of every single step.

Jeff [0:10:12]: So the way you make it profitable is to combine automation and technology with great human agents and experience.

Jeff [0:10:21]: So we're looking at this hybrid model that helps us one be highly effective.

Jeff [0:10:25]: We're insurance people doing technology not the inverse.

Jeff [0:10:28]: Right?

Jeff [0:10:28]: So we have this great agency that knows how to really take care of our customers.

Jeff [0:10:32]: They convert very well.

Jeff [0:10:33]: They have the right protection.

Jeff [0:10:35]: We take a neutral stance.

Jeff [0:10:36]: We're not bias toward any carrier, and they can feel that.

Jeff [0:10:39]: They can feel that genuine approach.

Jeff [0:10:41]: We're trying to take that same genuine approach post behind to say, hey, guess what?

Jeff [0:10:46]: We just noticed that you had a child or that you have a new driver or that you moved into a different home.

Jeff [0:10:52]: And not wait for them to ask, but to have that observation ready and set them up, so they don't have to quote again quite frankly.

Jeff [0:11:00]: I mean, most people don't love no one wakes up in the morning saying.

Jeff [0:11:04]: I wanna go quote my insurance.

Jeff [0:11:05]: So why can't we just help them have that handed to them and have them not have to input all that data and repeat and help them just kinda go through that that experience and that renewal process and with lighter touch, but still complete control over the ultimate decision.

Jeff [0:11:20]: So that's how we're addressing it.

Jeff [0:11:22]: Where's did data come from?

Jeff [0:11:23]: The data comes from a number or sometimes it comes from the customer.

Jeff [0:11:26]: Right?

Jeff [0:11:26]: So if you have a good account experience once they become a a member of your your brokerage, then they provide information about themselves contextual, you know things because of the policies you've sold And so they've provided that information.

Jeff [0:11:41]: And, of course, we're gonna keep the customer control of that.

Jeff [0:11:44]: If they opt in to have us provide that kind of guidance, which the survey says they're asking for, then we will provide that kind of guidance leveraging information that they've already provided or information that they've...

Jeff [0:11:54]: Maybe also given their partner permission to share with us so that we can be there for them.

Callan [0:11:59]: So you mentioned this account process, and a lot of it comes from this account process.

Callan [0:12:03]: Couldn't walk us through.

Callan [0:12:04]: What does that look like?

Callan [0:12:05]: You can't have a high...

Callan [0:12:06]: Well, maybe you can.

Callan [0:12:07]: I don't know.

Callan [0:12:08]: I I guess, I'm making an assumption.

Callan [0:12:09]: If you're adding seventeen hundred households a week, you'd have a million employees to put a high touch model on that kind of volume.

Callan [0:12:17]: What does that look like?

Callan [0:12:19]: What does that account process look like?

Jeff [0:12:21]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:12:21]: Well, every VIU by hub customer has?

Jeff [0:12:23]: The option to set up and manage their policies, etcetera through a digital account.

Jeff [0:12:29]: Right?

Jeff [0:12:29]: And so what's that...

Callan [0:12:31]: Now.

Callan [0:12:31]: What does that mean specific?

Jeff [0:12:32]: It it means basically, you onboard dev VIU and you go in and you sign...

Jeff [0:12:35]: You you can set up your profile, you can see your policies.

Jeff [0:12:38]: You can add other policies.

Callan [0:12:41]: Mh.

Jeff [0:12:41]: So we have kind of a digital wallet scenario where you can show your policies.

Jeff [0:12:44]: And then there's some things in this space that aren't out yet that I'm not gonna fully talk about.

Jeff [0:12:49]: But we've launched...

Jeff [0:12:50]: We've started piloting a newer account experience that'll will allow customers to opt in to the types of guidance that I'm talking about.

Jeff [0:12:58]: So picture finishing the phone call with the agent.

Jeff [0:13:01]: Having them say, welcome to you.

Jeff [0:13:03]: Here's your policy.

Jeff [0:13:04]: You're covered.

Jeff [0:13:05]: Hey.

Jeff [0:13:06]: Don't forget to set yourself up here because we can continue to provide this kind of guidance to you over time.

Jeff [0:13:11]: And then the the customer chooses to set that up.

Jeff [0:13:14]: And then over time, we're gonna build capabilities and experiences that touched them in the moments that matter to them so that when they get to that next cycle, where they're thinking about something new in their life or they're thinking about the renewal period, they're not just surprised by a a rate increase, we're there to hopefully be proactive about that and adjust that as it comes to them.

Callan [0:13:36]: Well, I'm curious like, in...

Callan [0:13:37]: What does that look like in one way player deeper.

Callan [0:13:39]: Because here's one of the things that I always think about in this is Target had a famous example where they started sending all of this pregnancy stuff to person at a house.

Callan [0:13:49]: It was a seventeen year old daughter, and and they're getting all this and the parents were, like hey You...

Callan [0:13:56]: You know, are you pregnant, which is, you, I couldn't imagine.

Callan [0:13:58]: It's gonna be a very weird conversation to have And the daughter said no.

Callan [0:14:02]: The daughter had no idea that she actually was pregnant because Target was target could predict it without anybody else having to intervene target new before anybody else in the family.

Callan [0:14:14]: That's daughter knew.

Callan [0:14:15]: Well, well, I'm curious, are you are you referring to taking...

Callan [0:14:20]: What I think Hearing you saying, I don't wanna put words in your mouth that I could be way off.

Callan [0:14:23]: I'm kind of assuming here that you're taking all this data so you can get better, you can predict better what that event is going to be, so then you can reach out proactively?

Callan [0:14:35]: Or is it more reactive?

Callan [0:14:36]: What does that look like?

Jeff [0:14:38]: It's reacted to information that we should have as a broker that the customer might not be paying attention to.

Jeff [0:14:43]: So we're not doing what what you just described target doing.

Jeff [0:14:46]: Look, your car tells you when you need an oil change.

Jeff [0:14:49]: Your bank tells you when you're about to overdraft.

Jeff [0:14:52]: It doesn't take a whole lot to be there for your customer.

Jeff [0:14:55]: Right?

Jeff [0:14:56]: So all we're saying is, hey, Colin.

Jeff [0:14:58]: Your child just turned sixteen, and we know that for whatever reason because we...

Jeff [0:15:04]: You we know who...

Jeff [0:15:04]: When you sign up for your homeowner policy, you probably had to tell us who live there.

Jeff [0:15:07]: Right?

Jeff [0:15:08]: And so there's information that you've willingly provided to get your coverage to us.

Jeff [0:15:13]: That as long as it stays updated and you choose to opt into your keeping your account up to date that we can be there for you so that when the next rate increase comes to you.

Jeff [0:15:23]: We're probably gonna see that at least at the same time you see, but you probably don't have time to pay attention to it or don't wanna pay attention to.

Jeff [0:15:30]: So when we do see that, Don't...

Jeff [0:15:31]: Shouldn't we as your broker, reach out to you and say, hey, this is coming.

Jeff [0:15:35]: You know what?

Jeff [0:15:36]: Guess what?

Jeff [0:15:36]: It's a ten percent increase, and that's alright because guess what your neighbors are experiencing the same thing.

Jeff [0:15:41]: That's what the market's doing.

Jeff [0:15:42]: Where you have a ten percent increase we think we can help you out with that if you take a look here or there.

Jeff [0:15:47]: So I think that there's a lot of opportunity to take readily available information that a broker naturally has plus the context that's available through the partner or other just readily available market information and help that customer guide through that.

Jeff [0:16:03]: And if the customer engaging us with the right way, we're gonna learn about their needs, and we're gonna learn about when those moments occur, and we just wanna be proactive about reaching out to them.

Callan [0:16:13]: How do you decide when it's digital outreach versus a human outreach?

Jeff [0:16:18]: That ultimately should be the customer's choice how they wanna interact with us, but there will be times when we would wanna automate the outreach to your point.

Jeff [0:16:27]: You can't have thousands of people on phones calling every time I notice to something.

Jeff [0:16:31]: Right?

Jeff [0:16:32]: Right.

Jeff [0:16:32]: So you wanna have a system in place that allows you to understand when those moments trigger.

Jeff [0:16:37]: And just like any other business often it starts with a text message or an email outreach.

Jeff [0:16:43]: Eventually, it might be a an Ai outbound call.

Jeff [0:16:47]: Mh right?

Jeff [0:16:48]: But those types of outreach were you test into those.

Jeff [0:16:52]: Right?

Jeff [0:16:52]: You try them with different customer segments or who likes to be interacting in which ways.

Jeff [0:16:56]: In that same account experience we could have them provide their preferences on how they wanna be be reached out to.

Jeff [0:17:01]: And most of the time for things that are updates or check ins, people do tend to, like, text an email.

Callan [0:17:10]: Mh.

Jeff [0:17:10]: And then when they get that, they'll also have the choice to interact back digitally, or call one of our agents who help them in the first place.

Jeff [0:17:17]: Right?

Jeff [0:17:17]: And oftentimes, as we know just what like with binding policies, people do at least at the end of the process.

Jeff [0:17:23]: Like to have that reassurance that a human provides them, which is why we do think it's gonna be a hybrid model over time.

Jeff [0:17:30]: But we're gonna reach out to them the way that they would expect to be reached out, and we're gonna evolve with the different technologies and the different methods of reach out that are expected by customers.

Callan [0:17:41]: What are the things I'm curious about is if I'm a local agent right now, I'm probably sitting here to thinking It's like, okay.

Callan [0:17:48]: That's great.

Callan [0:17:49]: But what relationship are you building?

Callan [0:17:50]: How do you think about that?

Jeff [0:17:53]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:17:53]: I mean, we are building a relationship with VIU by Hub, which to your point isn't necessarily call my my agent down street?

Callan [0:18:03]: Absolutely.

Jeff [0:18:03]: But what they know they're getting with us is true choice.

Jeff [0:18:07]: We have more breath than most start up brokerage or agencies.

Jeff [0:18:12]: We have the ability to kinda of provide a breadth of options that they can really hang their hat on.

Jeff [0:18:16]: They're they're getting stability and breadth they're getting new true neutrality, no bias towards anything and they can feel that guidance and ar bet is that at the end of that experience.

Jeff [0:18:27]: They're like, wow, that's the way buying insurance should work.

Jeff [0:18:30]: Right?

Jeff [0:18:30]: So they're loyal to the brokerage, not necessarily the person down the street.

Jeff [0:18:35]: And so that's the difference in that model, but it all comes down to how you're treating the consumer and how you're making them feel.

Jeff [0:18:42]: Right?

Jeff [0:18:42]: And we can replicate that without them speaking to the exact same person every time they're on the phone if we have the deep understanding that I just described.

Callan [0:18:50]: Okay.

Callan [0:18:50]: So what I'm hearing you say is...

Callan [0:18:52]: Because I think a lot of people do wanna pull this off.

Callan [0:18:54]: If they wanna be able...

Callan [0:18:55]: They don't necessarily...

Callan [0:18:56]: Because, you know, it's a lot of...

Callan [0:18:57]: And then, I'm not saying some people, like, that is their competitive advantage that they build really deep relationships.

Callan [0:19:03]: Typically it's more on the commercial side, but it can easily happen, especially in a small town agency where relationships are pretty much everything, and those are very, very, very difficult to dis.

Callan [0:19:12]: How do you continue to support and strengthen that relationship with VIU bio?

Callan [0:19:17]: But I know you talked about it and it might just be repetitive what you said, and we can skip it, but I'm am curious, I was a local agent and ahead of digital agency.

Callan [0:19:25]: And I hear actually exactly what you're were saying.

Callan [0:19:27]: It's like, you want them to have the relationship with the brand for lack of a better term than you do with the person to individual person.

Jeff [0:19:34]: By the way, the brand might not be ours.

Jeff [0:19:36]: That's the trick to embedded.

Callan [0:19:38]: Okay.

Callan [0:19:38]: Let's walk to.

Callan [0:19:39]: That's interesting.

Jeff [0:19:41]: Remember, if we embedded a bank and we white label that experience.

Jeff [0:19:44]: They're purchasing the insurance.

Jeff [0:19:47]: They're getting that guidance from the bank, we're we're operating that on their behalf.

Callan [0:19:52]: And so, I'm just gonna pull that back just a little bit So the definition of how you're you're defining embedded is we've got a partner and we'll use, like, the insured task example.

Callan [0:20:01]: Sure toss is the agent.

Callan [0:20:03]: They're partnering very close with banks, and they're essentially their insurance arm,

Jeff [0:20:08]: we're a white labeled insurance arm for the bank.

Callan [0:20:10]: Yep.

Callan [0:20:10]: Exactly.

Callan [0:20:11]: And so...

Jeff [0:20:11]: And we've done that in the automotive space.

Jeff [0:20:13]: We've done that in the residential space with homeowners association, but, like, most often, sometimes it's white labeled.

Jeff [0:20:18]: Sometimes they they want an insurance brand more visible to their customer.

Jeff [0:20:23]: And sometimes they just wanna have VIU by hubs serve their customers.

Jeff [0:20:27]: So we have the integration patterns and the experiences is set up so that we can work across what I call the spectrum of embedded.

Jeff [0:20:34]: Mh.

Jeff [0:20:34]: Right?

Jeff [0:20:35]: So some embedded, the way it was originally contemplated

Callan [0:20:40]: five years ago

Jeff [0:20:41]: was a marketing link.

Callan [0:20:42]: Or ten years.

Jeff [0:20:43]: Right?

Jeff [0:20:43]: You like a marketing link to a landing page with a quote experience, and you get taken care of, and you don't need your brand on it.

Jeff [0:20:49]: Then, Some more sophisticated group started coming along.

Jeff [0:20:53]: Some saying, you know what?

Jeff [0:20:55]: My brand is carrying more power than the insurance brand, and my my brand might even have more trust than insurance.

Jeff [0:21:01]: So I'm gonna leverage my brand with my own appropriate licensure to have you run that operation for me and share in that value.

Jeff [0:21:11]: Right?

Jeff [0:21:12]: And so there's that spectrum where it's fully embedded, white labeled indistinguishable from the the product that you're buying to a quick link out to someone who can take care of your insurance.

Jeff [0:21:23]: I think that has been the definition of the spectrum of definition of of embedded for a while.

Jeff [0:21:29]: And embedded is newer to things like auto and home, newer, like, less, five to seven years.

Jeff [0:21:35]: But there's other things that have embedded for travel insurance and things like that have been embedded a lot longer.

Callan [0:21:41]: Here's a question on embedded specifically.

Callan [0:21:43]: Right?

Callan [0:21:43]: So I think anybody's been in this, especially if they've been on the sur tech side, but it's been a hot item for Probably, I would say solid ten years.

Callan [0:21:53]: And one of the things I'm curious about is, you often see a lot of people try to do embedded without the agent, and they will create a custom program and then they will try to kinda have people's self enroll into whatever that is, or maybe they'll have a small, like, Tpa or somebody help them out with that.

Callan [0:22:16]: But that oftentimes, this could be my own personal bias or lack of knowledge on this.

Callan [0:22:22]: That seems to fail more than it works, and it seems like the only people would have really been able to been very successful with embedded are brokers like yourself.

Callan [0:22:33]: A digital broker that actually does have an agent involved with that sale.

Callan [0:22:39]: And I'll use...

Callan [0:22:39]: You guys have done a very good job about this.

Callan [0:22:41]: Maddox mad who Jeff Schneider on the podcast.

Callan [0:22:44]: They do a very good job of this.

Callan [0:22:46]: Yeah.

Callan [0:22:47]: A hundred percent.

Callan [0:22:47]: And there's...

Callan [0:22:48]: Of course, number of others.

Callan [0:22:49]: Milo does a good job of this.

Callan [0:22:51]: But...

Callan [0:22:51]: So I'm curious.

Callan [0:22:52]: Why do you think that is?

Callan [0:22:54]: What, I mean, I know the obvious answer, you could train.

Jeff [0:22:57]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:22:57]: I I've been sides of that.

Jeff [0:22:59]: So like I mean, from a carrier perspective, it's great if your partner wants to have a white labeled product that can be sold with the home or the car or whatever they're selling so that it's quick.

Jeff [0:23:13]: And they they they trust that much and that vehicle brand or that home builder.

Jeff [0:23:17]: They might say, hey, that home builder has this insurance and then they buy the kind of white labeled insurance product.

Jeff [0:23:22]: Yep.

Jeff [0:23:23]: The beat the paper.

Jeff [0:23:24]: The challenge with that is hardening and softening markets and swings in capacity sometimes that carrier might not have appetite in a hard market.

Jeff [0:23:33]: And then the partner is left not being able to serve all their customers.

Jeff [0:23:37]: I think the reason you see choice when in that context over time is because we bring over a hundred carriers to bear across all of our different products.

Jeff [0:23:50]: And at any given moment, their appetite might shift, but we're very likely to have a solution for that customer.

Jeff [0:23:56]: Our partners like that stability.

Jeff [0:23:58]: They like that they can say, hey.

Jeff [0:23:59]: Use Can you serve our customers across America?

Jeff [0:24:02]: And can you return at least three or four cro quotes brought and home?

Jeff [0:24:07]: And can you do x clients, you know, like, they're looking for things that aren't subject to the insurance market or the appetite of a single carrier?

Jeff [0:24:15]: And I think even if you build a program.

Jeff [0:24:18]: You still have to have your front end carrier and your reins on board with what you're gonna cover and that might even have some capacity limits, so the choice model continues to...

Jeff [0:24:26]: Sometimes we work with those companies by the way.

Jeff [0:24:28]: It might sound like like it's competitive, but it's actually If you have an Mg and it's hot in and embedded, you still might want the VIU platform to back you up for when that product doesn't hunt, but it's still a good customer that needs that has a different need.

Jeff [0:24:41]: And so there's ways to kind of marry those two concepts together as well, we can either put that product on platform and offer as part of the choice, or we can work with that company the way that they're going to market.

Jeff [0:24:52]: So it...

Jeff [0:24:53]: It's a good point though that single threaded product has more volatility and risk for a partner than

Callan [0:25:01]: Well, I I will...

Callan [0:25:02]: I don't even know.

Callan [0:25:02]: It candidly.

Callan [0:25:03]: I even know that I was making that point.

Callan [0:25:04]: I think it is a good point in what you're saying.

Callan [0:25:06]: And the reason I'm asking is isn't it that they need choice and that makes sense because that does give

Jeff [0:25:12]: them the ability to the consumers choice.

Callan [0:25:15]: Right.

Callan [0:25:15]: Right.

Callan [0:25:15]: In all fifties.

Callan [0:25:16]: Well, I would argue both because if a consumer, the otherwise, you're you're missing...

Callan [0:25:20]: You don't write in California, you're missing half them or or when I was to half the market depending on what this, you could be missing out in a large swath of the market.

Callan [0:25:27]: By not having that.

Callan [0:25:28]: So what I'm hearing you say is that it's choice that makes the difference from these, some people will actually create a captive program for that.

Callan [0:25:37]: In my mind, is like, is a choice is it the fact that you actually have an agent that's on this or is it something totally different?

Jeff [0:25:45]: It's both.

Jeff [0:25:45]: For us, I think it's three things.

Jeff [0:25:47]: I think it's choice and choice backed by a top ten global brokerage.

Jeff [0:25:52]: Sure.

Jeff [0:25:53]: Because there's a stability there.

Callan [0:25:55]: Yeah.

Callan [0:25:55]: Sure with our carrier.

Callan [0:25:55]: With an enterprise client?

Callan [0:25:56]: I can see that absolutely.

Jeff [0:25:58]: So there's there's choice.

Jeff [0:25:59]: There's the the stability of Hub international.

Jeff [0:26:02]: And then there's the omni channel nature of the way we deliver it, leading with a digital experience that embed naturally into the partner's ecosystem.

Jeff [0:26:12]: But always giving the customer the option that if they wanna talk to a a licensed professional.

Jeff [0:26:18]: That's what this...

Jeff [0:26:18]: The research said too.

Jeff [0:26:19]: Right?

Jeff [0:26:20]: Was they're very likely to trust and engage with a brand that's willing to address their insurance needs as long as it's backed by a licensed individual who knows what they're talking about.

Jeff [0:26:31]: And so I think that's an important element that often gets forgotten.

Jeff [0:26:34]: And you see companies come and go in the market that just manage the top of the funnel, but don't know how to fulfill and take care of that customer time, and it's a challenge for for those companies sometimes.

Callan [0:26:45]: I am really curious on that of that in particular, so the eighty eight percent of policy holders want their provider to proactively flag when coverage and longer fits their life what medium do they want that?

Callan [0:26:55]: Right?

Callan [0:26:56]: Is that meaning, I am curious because everyone's saying I'm like, oh, man, Ai is going to displace the broker?

Callan [0:27:01]: Well, maybe.

Callan [0:27:02]: Maybe.

Callan [0:27:03]: How many times have we heard that in the past over the past fifteen years?

Callan [0:27:07]: And I'm not saying, like, I'm not...

Callan [0:27:08]: I tried to look at these things objective as I can, but I am curious.

Callan [0:27:12]: Is it that they're saying...

Callan [0:27:14]: And I thought there was another stat on here, and I might not have a right in front of me that did actually talk about that they wanted to talk with somebody.

Callan [0:27:21]: Are you finding that to be the case?

Callan [0:27:24]: And if so, how do you think that that's going to as people are leaning on Ai more?

Callan [0:27:29]: I'm a heavy, heavy user?

Callan [0:27:31]: As people are leaning on more, Do you think that people still want to talk to other people or that they're want some combination or they wanna just talk to an agent?

Jeff [0:27:40]: I...

Jeff [0:27:40]: One, I think the story is untold, but that's why it's fun to talk about.

Jeff [0:27:43]: But I think well, what I do know actually is digital bind or even, like, something that should be straightforward like auto, is still only occurring at, like, a fifteen percent clip.

Jeff [0:27:55]: Really?

Jeff [0:27:56]: Fifteen to twenty.

Jeff [0:27:57]: It's growing.

Jeff [0:27:57]: But it's growing slowly.

Jeff [0:27:59]: And the rest of it is still binding for getting some form of advice from a human before that policy binds.

Jeff [0:28:06]: So we do know that because it's becoming a growing portion of people's wallet, especially homeowners, like, the people want to talk to somebody because it's so complex...

Jeff [0:28:15]: It's more complex and harder to understand the coverage.

Jeff [0:28:17]: You wanna make sure that that asset is protected and that you don't have surprises if something bad happens.

Jeff [0:28:23]: Right?

Jeff [0:28:23]: So they need that guidance.

Jeff [0:28:25]: Right?

Jeff [0:28:26]: And so that is a drive towards human interaction.

Jeff [0:28:28]: So that the need for today for a human to help with that is real.

Jeff [0:28:35]: Now, over time, what will human interaction look like, you and I get on calls a lot now, where you hang up the phone or you're, like, was that a human?

Callan [0:28:47]: Sure starting to get there.

Callan [0:28:48]: For question.

Callan [0:28:48]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:28:49]: Like, human like interaction is gonna be required, I think still.

Jeff [0:28:53]: I think you still wanna have conversational logic back and forth.

Jeff [0:28:57]: And I I don't know which tool is gonna provide that the best over time, but I do know that the people with the knowledge on how to have that conversation and how to help that person with empathy and to get them through the very complex web of different types of questions that will come to them and answer it in a genuine way with no hallucinations or anything else.

Jeff [0:29:22]: Still right now, and I think for a while requires a human in the loop.

Jeff [0:29:26]: And so we're committed to testing in all the different ways in which you can interact with people like a human, but I think the actual human is still gonna be key for quite some time.

Callan [0:29:36]: Yeah.

Callan [0:29:36]: It's an interesting one.

Callan [0:29:38]: It's one that we could talk about, probably have a a full episode on it.

Callan [0:29:41]: One of the things it's maybe a bit of a a side topic on here, but I'm very curious about.

Callan [0:29:46]: In your role, you look at a lot of the M and A.

Callan [0:29:50]: You're looking at some of these deals that we talked about, that is your job.

Callan [0:29:54]: I'm...

Callan [0:29:54]: So I'm really curious I have to assume that buying a digital type of agency is very different than buying a traditional agency, but I be wrong.

Callan [0:30:05]: What do you look for when you're going to buy another digital agency?

Callan [0:30:09]: Because you guys been very successful at this.

Jeff [0:30:12]: There are things that are the same and things that are different.

Jeff [0:30:14]: Right?

Jeff [0:30:15]: And so, honestly, we're not looking necessarily digital, specifically as much as, like, keep...

Jeff [0:30:21]: What capability do they bring.

Jeff [0:30:22]: And so, like, if you look across the value chain, all the different activities that need to happen to run us successful brokerage.

Jeff [0:30:27]: They might have a really good ability to to capture a certain type of a customer.

Jeff [0:30:33]: Right?

Jeff [0:30:33]: We bought insurer us in the banking and credit union space.

Jeff [0:30:37]: Right?

Jeff [0:30:38]: So that acquisition was clearly a way for us to create a meaningful presence and a channel that we value and see a lot of growth potential and that's proving out pretty well.

Callan [0:30:49]: So my definition when I'm thinking of digital.

Callan [0:30:50]: And let me know if you see it differently.

Callan [0:30:51]: Is not necessarily that you're bringing all these leads in digitally, but you have a centralized, probably very tech enabled intake to be able to take that in services

Jeff [0:31:04]: and things like the VIU platform in many cases.

Jeff [0:31:07]: This broaden our prospect list by the way, can bring that technology to a less sophisticated agency.

Jeff [0:31:14]: So if you zoom out from that and look at up international who has bought several agencies over the years, Right?

Jeff [0:31:23]: We're a company that has really good discipline around the types of companies we buy.

Jeff [0:31:27]: We like them to be growing.

Jeff [0:31:28]: We like them to be profitable.

Jeff [0:31:29]: We like...

Jeff [0:31:30]: So there's there's...

Jeff [0:31:30]: I mean, I don't need M and A alone for VIU by Hub.

Jeff [0:31:33]: I work with our M and A team.

Jeff [0:31:35]: It's I work with the guys.

Jeff [0:31:36]: You run the different verticals and our businesses, etcetera.

Jeff [0:31:38]: But the way that we look at that is what are the criteria by which it makes sense to bring a company under the hub international umbrella, which means we like things that are growing and profitable.

Callan [0:31:49]: The sherry

Jeff [0:31:49]: also because reVIU by Hub and we're bringing different capabilities then we'll look at that at if you pass some of those bars, you start saying, well what is the unique capability that that's gonna bring to us.

Jeff [0:32:00]: It doesn't come in a specific vertical, if we buy it in this vertical, it's spread across the other verticals and create growth everywhere else.

Jeff [0:32:07]: So you're really looking at it strategically, I'm looking for a strategic fit.

Jeff [0:32:10]: And this is ignoring all the obvious stuff.

Jeff [0:32:12]: The founders need to be strong you know, the business has to show some traction over time and that kind of growth trajectory, and we have to be able to look at it and think that we can make one plus one equal three.

Jeff [0:32:22]: Right?

Jeff [0:32:23]: And so that's...

Jeff [0:32:24]: I mean, it's not necessarily a difference between digital, not digital.

Jeff [0:32:28]: It's what does either one of those bring to our strategy?

Jeff [0:32:32]: And what...

Jeff [0:32:33]: How does that lego block plug in to amplify something that we've stated as an objective for the business?

Jeff [0:32:40]: And then if you find that fit then you have to make sure the founders are in line and that the numbers work and that everyone feels good about the the math and everything else, we have M and a people that help us work through all those hoops.

Callan [0:32:53]: How do you...

Callan [0:32:53]: What about that...

Callan [0:32:54]: What about for, like, creating a evaluation for these agencies because a lot of them, Not all of them I should say because that is interesting.

Callan [0:33:01]: What I'm hearing you say is that if somebody, for example, has a really, really strong niche, and maybe they don't have that digital infrastructure, you're looking at that from a perspective of, okay.

Callan [0:33:11]: If we bring this infrastructure to this, this could make it infinitely more efficient, You've already got a great mouse trap, we'll continue to do that mouse trap, try to improve it where we can.

Callan [0:33:21]: But we're bringing...

Jeff [0:33:23]: And watch what happens when you plug our agency into it to your conversion.

Callan [0:33:26]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:33:26]: It's pretty awesome.

Jeff [0:33:26]: Right?

Jeff [0:33:27]: So, like, so you say, okay.

Jeff [0:33:28]: Well, that's that's a fair way to to think about why we would come together.

Jeff [0:33:32]: But I think the key is strategic fit aligned with our strategy and what we're trying to get done.

Jeff [0:33:38]: And then you asked about the valuation.

Jeff [0:33:40]: It's a market based conversation.

Jeff [0:33:43]: Some founders have raised several rounds, and they have a number in their head that they think that they curious And then other people are and other other founders are, like, I bootstrap this thing, I've made it all way to this point, at the end of the day, the market has to clear.

Jeff [0:33:57]: Right?

Jeff [0:33:58]: And so the valuation, of course, there are market multiples, etcetera.

Jeff [0:34:02]: But at the end of the day, the two parties have to come together and what that what that meeting the minds looks like.

Jeff [0:34:08]: And if it doesn't meet, which happens often hard to get these deals done.

Jeff [0:34:11]: It's very low probability.

Jeff [0:34:12]: Then you move on to the next one or sometimes they go in and they come back with a different number later or sometimes we do the same.

Jeff [0:34:18]: So I think that that's there's no, like, secret formula to the valuation.

Jeff [0:34:22]: I think the stuff you learn in business school around market multiples and this kind of cash flow and all the things that we've all done throughout our careers all, like, makes sense.

Jeff [0:34:30]: But at the end of the day you're doing with human beings with expectations around valuation.

Jeff [0:34:35]: And if you're in a situation where you're saying, I'm looking at this thing as just an agency, and they're, like, no.

Jeff [0:34:39]: I build a tech start up, and they wanna tech multiple versus an agency multiple.

Jeff [0:34:43]: It's hard to it's hard to bridge that.

Callan [0:34:45]: Well, that's why I curious.

Callan [0:34:46]: Well, that's definitely an example I even thought, But makes total sense.

Callan [0:34:49]: And then And additionally, you know, sometimes a lot of times, these are really fast growing agencies.

Callan [0:34:55]: And as a result, the multiple could be very high.

Callan [0:34:58]: And do you find I just thinking like between this new traditional side, I have to assume more of these deals fall apart because of missed expectations around valuations than traditional, but I could be wrong on that.

Jeff [0:35:13]: It could be the case.

Jeff [0:35:13]: I think that there's a higher probability of mis and that expectations of the valuation.

Jeff [0:35:19]: If you think you've built a technology platform that has high value, than if you run a traditional agency and have a good mouse trap on the front end.

Jeff [0:35:28]: I think that that could be the case.

Jeff [0:35:29]: I don't think it's always the case, but it could be at a time.

Callan [0:35:31]: Yeah.

Callan [0:35:31]: That's interesting.

Callan [0:35:32]: I think it's definitely something that if you're...

Callan [0:35:35]: I think brokers that are out there that are looking to buy a digital agency need to probably take that into consideration in that some of these valuations can be really high.

Callan [0:35:45]: And maybe and a number of those are absolutely worth at.

Callan [0:35:47]: They're growing at a really good clip.

Callan [0:35:48]: They've got a good infrastructure.

Callan [0:35:50]: But what I'm hearing and you say is, like, due diligence don't feel like you gotta do every deal.

Jeff [0:35:56]: On your own model, and you have to live with what you purchased in the price what you purchased it.

Jeff [0:36:00]: I mean I but we you have to be disciplined, you have to...

Jeff [0:36:03]: I mean, if you're buying companies to buy companies sake, that's different than having a firm strategy that's consistent, Our strategy hasn't changed much.

Jeff [0:36:13]: We evolve the strategy Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:15]: Around the edges or maybe out a vertical or anything something like that.

Jeff [0:36:18]: But the stability of the strategy makes filtering those opportunities a lot easier because you can pretty quickly figure out if there's something you can do too.

Jeff [0:36:27]: Accelerate that strategy or not.

Jeff [0:36:29]: So I think the strategic foundation makes a pretty big difference and and how those things play out.

Callan [0:36:33]: And so take a look back.

Callan [0:36:35]: You know, some of these things that we talked about would have been some of the...

Callan [0:36:38]: What have you seen from, like, a results perspective.

Callan [0:36:40]: As far as, like, when you're bringing these in, are you seeing a meaningful increase in retention and intake rate and whatever that might be when these partners come in because you've built this internal machine?

Jeff [0:36:52]: Are you talking about if we if we buy a company?

Callan [0:36:54]: I would say if you buy a company or just in general, Like, if you're taking on a new partner or whatever that might be.

Jeff [0:36:59]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:59]: I mean, we've certainly taken on partners and and brought it and integrate with some other parties that independently, they were doing the best they could with the resources they had.

Jeff [0:37:08]: But when you integrate with a scaled agency operation backed by hub with expanded carrier capacity and the ability to continuously improve the capabilities behind it, the performance sees uplift.

Jeff [0:37:23]: Right?

Jeff [0:37:24]: So if a partner was with someone who only had one of the models that you were talking about and all of a sudden, they have choice and they have our ability to convert, you'll see an uptick in those numbers.

Jeff [0:37:33]: Right?

Jeff [0:37:33]: If you see if you bring in an agency that was only in a few states.

Jeff [0:37:37]: Now I had a certain carrier capacity, and you you bring their leads into our operation, we're better prepared to serve those customers needs.

Jeff [0:37:46]: And as a result, you see more conversion.

Jeff [0:37:48]: It's not because we're better salespeople as much as it's...

Jeff [0:37:51]: We have...

Jeff [0:37:52]: We have a better capability and a better breath of coverage often to offer offer those customers that come from either that from either that partner or that newly acquired company.

Callan [0:38:05]: Hub international as a whole has put out, that they made a pretty big investment, and they specific Ai, and they talked about their ant philanthropic investment.

Callan [0:38:12]: And when you think of, like, VIU by hub, and your strategy with VIU by hub, where are you placing that Ai investment?

Jeff [0:38:19]: We always tell people Ai is a tool?

Jeff [0:38:21]: It's another technology that we can apply to the right use cases.

Jeff [0:38:24]: Our use cases on a road map and the problems we're trying to solve.

Jeff [0:38:27]: Actually haven't changed that much.

Jeff [0:38:28]: So you start looking at those same problem statements whether it be how you shorten the amount of time and automate certain activities through your agency operation, how you do some of the outreach that we described, how you understand the right moment to reach out to a customer.

Jeff [0:38:43]: All of those different use cases across the value chain that makes sense for certain types of automation are all places that we're looking to apply this new tool.

Jeff [0:38:55]: Right?

Jeff [0:38:56]: And so I think the mistake people make is they get caught up and saying, they're using Ai in, like, everything goes to Ai.

Jeff [0:39:04]: I you know, it's like, it's just not how it works.

Jeff [0:39:07]: And it's hard to do.

Jeff [0:39:09]: And it's unproven in many places It's starting to get more and more proven where it can add value, but things that help make our humans more effective have been the where we've seen the most values so far.

Jeff [0:39:21]: So, like, you take the the work that a licensed agent needs to do on the phone.

Jeff [0:39:27]: And you think about what they have to do to capture information and process information and get quotes and then interact with the carriers and buying the policies.

Jeff [0:39:36]: There's all kinds of steps in there that aren't the best use of their highly skilled time.

Jeff [0:39:41]: To help provide advice.

Jeff [0:39:44]: So if you free up some of that time, we've actually found it some cases our handled times extend because they're giving more advice.

Callan [0:39:51]: Interesting.

Jeff [0:39:51]: Right?

Jeff [0:39:51]: But they also are more effective and what happens in terms of, like, conversion and other things because they're being more patient and they're providing better advice.

Jeff [0:39:59]: So we're looking always at how to help our humans be as effective as possible as they interact in that most important moment when the person saying, how can you help me get the right protection?

Jeff [0:40:10]: And we believe that if they're able to free up to provide advice, then they have they build the trust to provide value.

Jeff [0:40:18]: And when they provide value, they provide peace of mind, and then those people come back.

Jeff [0:40:23]: And they they understand.

Jeff [0:40:25]: We earn permission to give them advice later when something changes.

Jeff [0:40:30]: And so where to apply it?

Jeff [0:40:32]: Really has it...

Jeff [0:40:33]: You can look at anything on our road roadmap, and you can say, oh, Could we automate there?

Jeff [0:40:37]: Is there an Ai tool that would help us do that better?

Jeff [0:40:40]: And then we're doing with our team too.

Jeff [0:40:42]: Right?

Jeff [0:40:42]: I'm a strategist.

Jeff [0:40:43]: I do work where Ai by the way, is, like, having a very naive an inexperienced analyst.

Jeff [0:40:51]: But that I've had them on my strategy teams, and they help me get sixty, seventy five percent of the weight to the answer, and then I have to grab the pen and land the strategy.

Jeff [0:41:01]: So I've been able to accelerate strategy work reVIU by Hub by using the same tools that you said hub international rolled out?

Callan [0:41:08]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:08]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:08]: So that's how we think about it is what's the solution we're trying to deliver?

Jeff [0:41:12]: And can we make it better, faster for the agent, the customer or the partner, and then we plug it in there.

Jeff [0:41:22]: The majority of the early use cases have been around augmenting the work of the agent.

Jeff [0:41:27]: You know, you can use it to generate drafts of content for marketing and some things like that.

Callan [0:41:32]: From the agent perspective, do you have some of those examples on where you're using it right now?

Jeff [0:41:37]: We have a couple one thing we did last year that was awesome that, you know, you always think about the agent internet the customer?

Callan [0:41:43]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:43]: We looked at training or our new agents.

Jeff [0:41:46]: Mh.

Jeff [0:41:47]: Using a tool.

Jeff [0:41:48]: Because it used to be that you would do kind of mock conversations like we're doing now you act like the agent.

Callan [0:41:53]: Sorry.

Callan [0:41:53]: And

Jeff [0:41:53]: I actually sell one big role by

Callan [0:41:55]: by the way.

Jeff [0:41:55]: Right, right.

Jeff [0:41:56]: So here we are.

Jeff [0:41:58]: But to have a tool that can behave like a customer, but also listen to the agent, speak and then give them immediate feedback.

Jeff [0:42:08]: The people coming at the company log and they feel more prepared when it's time to actually help our customers.

Jeff [0:42:14]: So, like, there's use case after use case where it can be used to make something better, a process, a training process that that's one good example.

Jeff [0:42:22]: The other place with the agent that makes a lot of sense is things like, okay.

Jeff [0:42:27]: You have this conversation and because you wanna take good care of that customer, you need to talk to them later or because you wanna be ready when it's time for renewal, you kind of capture some information about what happened on that call, you type it in.

Jeff [0:42:39]: Takes time at the end of every call.

Jeff [0:42:42]: Well, if that happens automatically.

Jeff [0:42:44]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:42:45]: That person can pick up the next call and take care of the next customer faster, and you can scale without having to always add more and more and more humans to the equation.

Jeff [0:42:55]: So who are growing at a clip where eventually you have to always...

Jeff [0:42:57]: You have to add some agents too.

Jeff [0:42:59]: But I think for us, it is not about removing humans from the system.

Jeff [0:43:04]: It's about scalability and finding things throughout our the experience that we delivered to our customers with the experience we enable our agents to have to kind of lift up and help them serve more customers and and get better protection, etcetera.

Jeff [0:43:18]: That's how we're looking at it.

Callan [0:43:19]: I think both of those are, like, great ones to start with especially the role playing.

Callan [0:43:23]: You know, it's interesting before Ai was came out.

Callan [0:43:27]: One of the things that I heard from agents...

Callan [0:43:28]: When I was always kinda going through doing some interVIUs to see if I wanted to start my own.

Callan [0:43:32]: Sure tech, and that was probably the one that came up the most was we need a better way to onboard and train agents.

Callan [0:43:38]: And then once Ai came out and went to all them.

Callan [0:43:40]: Like, just...

Callan [0:43:41]: And, like, look at chad Cheap Look at Claude, it's...

Callan [0:43:43]: This is gonna be probably your best bet.

Callan [0:43:45]: And it's gonna probably work pretty well, and it's only gonna get better especially.

Callan [0:43:48]: The new voice mode of chat Just...

Callan [0:43:51]: Been...

Callan [0:43:51]: I mean, it got pretty insane pretty quick.

Jeff [0:43:53]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:43:53]: For sure.

Jeff [0:43:54]: And I I just think there's just so many things you can do to help in the background surface the right information at the right moment for an age so they can be more helpful And give themselves time on research and things like that.

Jeff [0:44:04]: So there's so much opportunity with that kind of automation that you have to grab the obvious use cases first.

Jeff [0:44:10]: Prove it out, get everybody comfortable with it.

Jeff [0:44:13]: I mean, all companies have lawyers and compliance and all these...

Jeff [0:44:17]: You know, you have to really make sure that you're doing it the right way, and you're do you're doing in a compliant way that that really serves the customer and and also, like, doesn't take too much risk.

Callan [0:44:27]: Sure.

Callan [0:44:27]: Last question, if we're sitting here in ten years time, everything went one hundred percent to plan, what does it look like?

Callan [0:44:35]: Ten years from

Jeff [0:44:37]: now.

Jeff [0:44:37]: Ten years.

Callan [0:44:38]: Twenty thirty six,

Jeff [0:44:40]: I think the foundations we've discussed.

Jeff [0:44:42]: All hold.

Jeff [0:44:44]: I think consumers are are even more in control.

Jeff [0:44:47]: They are making choices across in in the insurance context, they have all the choices they could need when they wanna make a decision.

Jeff [0:44:54]: I think they don't have to go through processes that they don't wanna go through.

Jeff [0:44:58]: We talk about the concept of never having to quote again.

Jeff [0:45:02]: It doesn't mean a quote not generated.

Jeff [0:45:03]: It just means that you can remove the human from the ar process once that starts, and then they get to make the choice at the end.

Jeff [0:45:10]: So I think you take this required step and acquiring a car or acquiring a home, and it becomes so effortless for the consumer that it's almost happening in the background.

Jeff [0:45:24]: But they have when they need it, the right trusted advice.

Jeff [0:45:28]: They know that someone's watching their back and kind of navigating that on their behalf.

Jeff [0:45:35]: Right?

Jeff [0:45:35]: So I don't think you necessarily get to a point where it's like, Colin never has to think about insurance again.

Jeff [0:45:42]: He's just gonna turn it off because I think that there's still gonna be complexities.

Jeff [0:45:46]: There's still be changed your life or you're gonna want somebody or something to give you that advice.

Jeff [0:45:50]: And so I do though think that you won't have to have the the an and you'll have way more peace of mind that you have the right protection at any given moment than you do today.

Callan [0:46:02]: Well, I think it's gonna be super interesting.

Callan [0:46:04]: And thanks for coming on today.

Callan [0:46:06]: This was fun to talk about.

Callan [0:46:08]: It was the surveys very interesting.

Callan [0:46:10]: I believe you could find that just you guys posted about this quite a bit over the past couple weeks, and I know Brian's gonna be talking at It c.

Callan [0:46:18]: Well, when this release is, probably with just within a couple of days.

Jeff [0:46:22]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:46:22]: We'll be down there, and it'll be fun to connect and all these topics are what you're gonna be hearing at It.

Jeff [0:46:27]: Right?

Jeff [0:46:27]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:46:27]: People trying to figure out exactly how this stuff plugging in, and there's so much opportunity.

Jeff [0:46:31]: We'll be fun to hear what we hear on there.

Callan [0:46:34]: It's gonna be super interesting.

Callan [0:46:35]: I always love doing like to debrief episodes right after too.

Callan [0:46:38]: So it'll be it'll be a fun one, but Jeff, this has been awesome.

Callan [0:46:40]: Thanks for coming on Anyway.

Callan [0:46:42]: Just a lot of fun.

Jeff [0:46:43]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:46:43]: Thanks Always fun.

Callan [0:46:44]: Take care.

Callan [0:46:44]: Absolutely.