How PJ Cannon Turns Employee Referrals Into a Recruiting Machine

PJ [0:00:00]: It's not about hey, I sell insurance on building this office in Columbus for Henderson Brothers because that just naturally becomes a part of it and the more you'd show that you care or wanna be involved and engaged with people at a different level.

PJ [0:00:14]: The more they naturally wanna gravitate towards...

PJ [0:00:18]: Well, how can we help you?

Callan [0:00:22]: Welcome to The Insurance Growth Lab.

Callan [0:00:23]: Where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance.

Callan [0:00:29]: Industry

Callan [0:00:29]: I’m Callan Harrington founder of Flashgrowth and in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers and Shirt tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's How March at a product, scale a channel, or solve a specific growth challenge.

Callan [0:00:47]: It's no fluff, just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:51]: PJ.

Callan [0:00:56]: Excited did they get you on here?

Callan [0:00:58]: So be.

Callan [0:00:59]: Today we're obviously gonna be talking about recruiting.

Callan [0:01:01]: Now, I know that's not obvious to our audience at all who has zero context on this at this point, but you are an absolute beast of a recruiter.

Callan [0:01:11]: And I'm very excited to dive into all the details on that.

Callan [0:01:15]: So I figured one of the place that I'd start.

Callan [0:01:17]: I know conversations we've had in the past.

Callan [0:01:19]: You mentioned, you know, you played college football, played at Wisconsin, so big time college football.

Callan [0:01:25]: And you mentioned that that recruiting process that you went through and you're sixteen seventeen years old had a really big impact on you.

Callan [0:01:34]: Can you walk us through that?

Callan [0:01:35]: Where did that start?

PJ [0:01:36]: Yeah.

PJ [0:01:36]: You know, it started going to a football camp at Wisconsin.

PJ [0:01:40]: Just to go have fun with with my buddies.

PJ [0:01:43]: Yeah a sudden after the second day, they pulled me aside with coach Alvarez and are, like, we wanna offer your scholarship.

PJ [0:01:50]: So that started the process...

Callan [0:01:53]: Happened to me too.

PJ [0:01:54]: Yeah.

PJ [0:01:54]: Well, I mean, it looks

Callan [0:01:55]: like, Yeah.

Callan [0:01:56]: You could tell.

Callan [0:01:56]: Totally.

Callan [0:01:57]: You could tell, like, line back for sure.

PJ [0:01:59]: Yep.

PJ [0:01:59]: Yeah.

PJ [0:01:59]: So as that process then started.

PJ [0:02:02]: And once you get one off or everyone else, you know it's a copycat.

PJ [0:02:05]: So everyone else started to recruit me in it.

PJ [0:02:08]: Yeah I paid a lot of attention to the detail, the phone calls, the letters that I would get, how people ran visits when I would go up, go and visit different programs.

PJ [0:02:18]: And there was one story that really...

PJ [0:02:20]: Stuck with me from Northwestern actually, the coach was mike Go lars.

PJ [0:02:25]: He was a graduate assistant coach and he's giving me a tour on campus, and he said to me.

PJ [0:02:29]: He's, like, no matter where you decide to go, make sure you use them and don't let us use you.

PJ [0:02:36]: I'm like, well, tell me a little more about that.

PJ [0:02:38]: He's like, well, get your education, take the classes you wanna take, connect with the alumni, the boosters and really set yourself up for life after football.

PJ [0:02:48]: And that really stuck with me and gave me some just passion around recruiting and attracting people to this industry.

PJ [0:02:57]: Yeah.

PJ [0:02:57]: As I got into this career.

Callan [0:02:59]: You know, I haven't asked you this before.

Callan [0:03:01]: So the guy at Northwestern had a big impact?

PJ [0:03:03]: Mh.

Callan [0:03:04]: Was there any chance that you were gonna consider Northwestern?

Callan [0:03:07]: Or was it just...

Callan [0:03:08]: Your Wisconsin guy?

Callan [0:03:09]: Was it Wisconsin all the way?

PJ [0:03:10]: I I actually almost d committed from Wisconsin because Northwestern also was gonna allow me to play baseball.

PJ [0:03:15]: Interesting.

PJ [0:03:17]: Yeah.

PJ [0:03:17]: In Wisconsin doesn't have a baseball program.

Callan [0:03:19]: See, I was also recruited for two.

PJ [0:03:23]: We're the, you, modern day about Jackson.

Callan [0:03:25]: Yeah.

Callan [0:03:25]: Exactly that.

Callan [0:03:25]: That's exactly right.

Callan [0:03:26]: Clearly, I was not.

Callan [0:03:27]: So I think it's super interesting, and I've tried to think about this.

Callan [0:03:31]: Say in...

Callan [0:03:31]: I've read the Urban Meyer book, I've read Save book, I've read a number of these, and I think most people realize is that that really follow this closely.

Callan [0:03:39]: They are dialed.

Callan [0:03:40]: In processes.

Callan [0:03:42]: Nothing is an accident.

Callan [0:03:43]: Mh.

Callan [0:03:44]: Nothing is a mistake down to the smallest minute detail.

Callan [0:03:48]: Is that what you saw within that process?

PJ [0:03:51]: Very much.

PJ [0:03:51]: That has really continued to evolve, and I watch and follow a lot of these teams on Twitter and social media.

PJ [0:03:58]: And I see what they do when they announced somebody's coming to visit for a weekend and how special make them feel.

PJ [0:04:05]: So I got Northwestern mutual when I was running and building a district there.

PJ [0:04:09]: When we had somebody join us at the firm, we would make album covers and do, like, shoe drops and post all that stuff on social media for them.

PJ [0:04:19]: And it just created, like, a totally different buzz and an experience for these potential candidates.

PJ [0:04:25]: Yeah.

Callan [0:04:26]: Well, I'm excited to dive into the weed of all of that.

Callan [0:04:28]: You know, Northwestern mutual.

Callan [0:04:30]: You guys had a ton of success.

Callan [0:04:31]: And I was grateful to be a part of the very early run on that before launching my own independent agency, but that had a ton of success.

Callan [0:04:39]: We're actually gonna have troy here to kinda talk about that, like, from the beginning to where it is now.

PJ [0:04:43]: Pretty

Callan [0:04:43]: cool.

Callan [0:04:43]: And, you know, hundreds of brothers is a good size agency.

Callan [0:04:48]: Largest agency in Pittsburgh, did not realize that they were founded in eighteen ninety three.

Callan [0:04:52]: Right.

Callan [0:04:53]: Which is unbelievable.

Callan [0:04:54]: A steam ship of business at that, which is incredible.

Callan [0:04:57]: Seventy seven N mps, which is pretty impressive, especially for a very large agency, and over hundred and eighty people.

Callan [0:05:04]: So big time agency.

Callan [0:05:06]: Now, with a part that I would very excited about is so a lot of people...

Callan [0:05:11]: It's like, one of the things I always think about is you can acquire an agency to start in a new area.

Callan [0:05:17]: Mh.

Callan [0:05:17]: Or you could start from scratch.

Callan [0:05:19]: And I'm very interested.

Callan [0:05:20]: You did that.

Callan [0:05:21]: You started this Columbus branch from scratch.

Callan [0:05:24]: And I'm interested to talk about that.

Callan [0:05:27]: Because recruiting, you, you did this in two vastly different at Northwestern Mutual, very much financial services.

Callan [0:05:34]: Life insurance, investments, and with Henderson Brothers.

Callan [0:05:37]: I know you guys, as I understand it, do do some investments, but it's very heavily on the P&C side.

PJ [0:05:43]: I'm gonna correct you a little bit.

Callan [0:05:44]: Yeah.

Callan [0:05:44]: Yeah.

PJ [0:05:44]: So on on the investment side, actually, we do manage.

PJ [0:05:47]: Over five billion dollars in four zero one k assets.

Callan [0:05:51]: I did not realize it

PJ [0:05:52]: And we're close to a billion dollars in individual wealth management, which...

PJ [0:05:56]: In that that division, the individual wealth management really only started about seven years ago.

PJ [0:06:01]: Interesting morph into that because of all of the clients that we had on the formal k side.

Callan [0:06:06]: I didn't realize that.

PJ [0:06:07]: Yeah.

PJ [0:06:07]: Bigger than most people would think.

Callan [0:06:09]: I didn't not realize it was that big Pretty impressive.

Callan [0:06:10]: So I wanna start...

Callan [0:06:13]: I wanna get the process as a whole.

Callan [0:06:15]: And then I'm curious like, what worked in one type of business.

Callan [0:06:18]: Mh.

Callan [0:06:18]: Versus the other.

Callan [0:06:19]: Northwestern mutual.

Callan [0:06:20]: So I'd I kinda like to start there.

Callan [0:06:22]: That's a career agent platform, Meaning, this is a captive.

Callan [0:06:27]: Like, you can always sell Northwestern mutual.

Callan [0:06:29]: You can do some outside business.

Callan [0:06:30]: I know they've loosened on the investment side pretty heavily.

Callan [0:06:32]: But from insurance perspective, really the northwestern product.

Callan [0:06:36]: And so recruiting that position, that's a really tough on it's great career if you can make it, but recruiting lot...

Callan [0:06:46]: Especially sense, correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of what you're recruiting are very young people into that business.

Callan [0:06:52]: Mh.

Callan [0:06:53]: So with the first part that I'd like to start on here and kinda understand your process, and this could be for Northwestern Mutual Henderson whatever that might be.

Callan [0:07:00]: Let's start at the top of the funnel.

Callan [0:07:02]: Where do you find people?

PJ [0:07:04]: Mh.

PJ [0:07:04]: So there's a couple ways.

PJ [0:07:06]: Do you have obviously the Linkedin and deeds, which are great for volume and helping widen the funnel.

PJ [0:07:15]: Mh.

PJ [0:07:15]: And what we knew is from, like, Internet recruiting, we had to get two three hundred leads to get one contract.

Callan [0:07:22]: Mh.

PJ [0:07:23]: So the other way to go about that is just leveraging the network that you've built in Columbus or Milwaukee wherever you are and using those relationships to go get introductions to sharp up and coming people.

PJ [0:07:37]: And that, we knew then, like, it was like a twenty to one lead to contract.

PJ [0:07:44]: How much more effective way.

Callan [0:07:47]: How do you do that on an ongoing basis?

Callan [0:07:48]: So as such, are you leveraging, like, centers of influence?

PJ [0:07:51]: Yeah.

PJ [0:07:51]: Centers of influence?

PJ [0:07:52]: Leveraging the advisors that we're working on our teams.

PJ [0:07:55]: Mh.

PJ [0:07:55]: Networking events, just being out in town?

Callan [0:07:59]: What were the things that were the most effective out of any of that?

PJ [0:08:02]: Really leveraging the advisors that currently we're working out Northwestern and understanding, you know, these are highly productive people that are bringing in fifty sixty, seventy new clients a year, and they're spending the time with their clients to understand their hopes and dreams.

PJ [0:08:18]: And understanding that, okay, If your career path isn't lining up with hopes and dreams, and maybe you should talk to PJ.

PJ [0:08:25]: So we really did a good job building that from, you know, grassroots internally in the office of Hey.

PJ [0:08:33]: This is a great career.

PJ [0:08:34]: I'm having a lot of success in it.

PJ [0:08:35]: I think you're a short person and you should be having a conversation with us.

Callan [0:08:40]: What was is their incentive to do that?

PJ [0:08:43]: No real incentive other than...

PJ [0:08:44]: You know, they...

PJ [0:08:45]: I think naturally become a leader for that person as they come into the business.

PJ [0:08:49]: And secondly, that person gonna wanna do work with them.

PJ [0:08:53]: So as they're learning the ropes of doing financial planning, they're gonna bring that person out with them to help on those client experiences.

PJ [0:09:00]: I.

Callan [0:09:02]: So if I'm hearing that correctly.

Callan [0:09:03]: It's...

Callan [0:09:03]: These advisers were incentivized to bring somebody in because they can then kinda put them under their tu In order to split whatever this business is when they're getting ramped up.

Callan [0:09:13]: Is that correct?

Callan [0:09:14]: Yeah.

Callan [0:09:14]: So there is a win win involved in.

Callan [0:09:17]: Now did you guys have a process around that?

Callan [0:09:20]: In which you did, like, because what I find oftentimes is you put together this great program on paper, whether it's a referral program or whatever that might be.

Callan [0:09:29]: Sounds great.

Callan [0:09:30]: Even somebody might start to refer somebody they get it, they get collect a bonus.

Callan [0:09:34]: I'm not saying you guys did any of these things.

Callan [0:09:35]: And then it doesn't...

Callan [0:09:37]: Like, it dies, and they're just like, well, back to business as usual.

Callan [0:09:40]: Yeah.

Callan [0:09:41]: How do you maintain that over the long term?

PJ [0:09:43]: You have to talk about it.

PJ [0:09:44]: You know, this was something that as we as a district director at Northwestern Columbus, was able to build out other leaders within our, and everyone had a buy in to make sure that we talked about this all the time.

PJ [0:10:00]: It was not just a once a month checking it was a daily weekly thing that we talked about and tracked to make sure we could be predictable for the growth that we wanted to see.

Callan [0:10:12]: Switching gears a little bit to the centers of influence.

Callan [0:10:14]: Mh.

Callan [0:10:15]: My understanding senator of influence to somebody that very connected.

Callan [0:10:19]: So, like I mean, in the P&C world, it could be a real estate agent could be an accountant could be an attorney.

Callan [0:10:24]: They know a lot of people.

Callan [0:10:25]: They usually have some sort of incentive to make that connection.

Callan [0:10:29]: Mh.

Callan [0:10:29]: What were the centers of influence from a recruiting perspective?

PJ [0:10:33]: Yeah.

PJ [0:10:33]: For me, I looked at other mortgage brokers.

PJ [0:10:36]: I looked at other successful salespeople and medical, pharmaceutical bankers, those were the people I wanted to build strong relationships with because they're always in front of people, and they're always growing their networks.

Callan [0:10:50]: And so you would have a friend.

Callan [0:10:52]: They're a super connector.

Callan [0:10:54]: Mh.

Callan [0:10:55]: They love to connect people.

Callan [0:10:56]: You're saying, hey.

Callan [0:10:57]: This is what I'm looking for.

Callan [0:10:59]: Right.

Callan [0:10:59]: What can you bring along?

PJ [0:11:01]: Yeah.

PJ [0:11:01]: And I also found, you wanted to connect or build centers of influence that you could also help.

PJ [0:11:06]: It can't be a one way street.

PJ [0:11:08]: Otherwise, they're gonna stop.

PJ [0:11:09]: So I wanted to make sure I was surrounded with people that, at the same time, if they're introducing me to people, I can introduce them also.

Callan [0:11:19]: So you have to have a good network yourself.

PJ [0:11:21]: Yeah.

PJ [0:11:21]: Absolutely.

Callan [0:11:22]: I, this is probably a perfect time to talk about this.

Callan [0:11:23]: I was curious if we could find a way to bring this up, but how do you build your network?

PJ [0:11:28]: Yeah.

PJ [0:11:28]: Not being from Columbus and moving here in twenty thirteen, knowing maybe about three people.

Callan [0:11:34]: Mh.

PJ [0:11:35]: That was a challenge at first.

PJ [0:11:36]: And what really changed for me was as we grew at Northwestern, and we started having more success, I was able to start looking at other opportunities in different ways of doing things, which led to me joining a local country club.

Callan [0:11:54]: Mh.

PJ [0:11:54]: And that country club really changed a lot of trajectory around relationships and people that I was getting in front of on a daily basis and building just rapport with people that you know, these people are maybe ten, fifteen years ahead of where I was, and they were people I wanted to be around and be like.

PJ [0:12:14]: Great.

PJ [0:12:15]: Dads great business people, great husbands.

PJ [0:12:17]: And that just naturally happened to wear that they took me under their wig at Tart and wanted to help me as much as they possibly could.

Callan [0:12:28]: So I wanna get into the weeds on this?

Callan [0:12:30]: Because I, I think it's fantastic.

Callan [0:12:31]: How many rounds you playing per year?

PJ [0:12:35]: Trying not to get fired here now.

PJ [0:12:36]: You know, over the last three years, I've been in the ninety to a little bit, some triple digits.

Callan [0:12:44]: Yeah.

Callan [0:12:44]: It's a great sound bite but you really made this into a straight process.

PJ [0:12:49]: Oh, what

Callan [0:12:50]: is your strategy when you play?

PJ [0:12:52]: Yeah.

PJ [0:12:52]: It's...

PJ [0:12:52]: Once I built a great network of people at Harden, and you just continue to get on the sheet with those people, but I real quick.

Callan [0:13:01]: What's that mean?

Callan [0:13:01]: When you say sheet with those people, what does that look like?

PJ [0:13:04]: Just consistently being around certain groups.

PJ [0:13:06]: And being a part of those groups.

PJ [0:13:09]: And I think one thing I did differently and maybe more strategically was, you know, if I had an afternoon where I was done with work and it's four o'clock, I would go to the t sheet and try and sign up with somebody I didn't know yet.

PJ [0:13:21]: Mh.

PJ [0:13:21]: You spend three, four hours with somebody.

PJ [0:13:23]: You'd get to find out who they are quite a bit, and you build a great rapport with them.

PJ [0:13:29]: So it's now gotten to a point over at the club where I would say I one of the more diverse friendship groups.

PJ [0:13:35]: Yeah.

PJ [0:13:36]: Where I'm running and playing a lot with sixty five, seventy year old people, and I'm also good friends and playing with a lot of the newer members that are thirty, thirty five years old.

Callan [0:13:45]: And so you've got this, if you're not doing that, how are you networking on there?

Callan [0:13:50]: Like, what is your process for doing that?

Callan [0:13:52]: On the course or other avenues?

Callan [0:13:54]: Well, on the course.

PJ [0:13:55]: Yeah.

PJ [0:13:55]: So on the course, I don't really talk about business much.

PJ [0:13:58]: It's more...

PJ [0:13:59]: I like to talk about what's going well in your life, what's going good in your business?

PJ [0:14:03]: What's happening with your family and show that I care about people.

PJ [0:14:07]: And once you get at that level, like, that just becomes what we do on the golf course then.

PJ [0:14:14]: It's not about Pay sell insurance on building this office in Columbus for Henderson Brothers because that just naturally becomes a part of it and the more you'd show that you care or wanna be involved and engaged with people at a different level.

PJ [0:14:30]: The more they naturally wanna gravitate towards...

PJ [0:14:33]: Well, how can we help you?

Callan [0:14:35]: I think a couple things that are really interesting on this is, you know, one, you don't have to join as full golf.

Callan [0:14:42]: You can join as a social member I just did this at Wed wood.

Callan [0:14:46]: And it's funny.

Callan [0:14:48]: I was looking at the t sheet.

Callan [0:14:50]: And you know, you can go on the app and you can see a lot of them are filled up.

Callan [0:14:53]: A lot of times Like could do some Yeah.

Callan [0:14:55]: Or a threes some, and I was thinking about you on this?

Callan [0:14:58]: Like, man.

Callan [0:14:59]: That is interesting.

Callan [0:15:00]: That is a good way.

Callan [0:15:01]: You could because you just add yourself to it.

Callan [0:15:04]: Yep.

Callan [0:15:04]: Okay.

Callan [0:15:05]: Here's a question I've been dying to know.

Callan [0:15:07]: What's the etiquette around that?

Callan [0:15:09]: Like, if people have a to sum, or are you expecting that somebody else will join that or two people will join that?

PJ [0:15:16]: No.

PJ [0:15:16]: No at all.

PJ [0:15:16]: No.

PJ [0:15:17]: I'm fine.

PJ [0:15:17]: I'm totally fine going as a threes.

PJ [0:15:19]: And at Heart.

PJ [0:15:20]: We walk a lot over there.

PJ [0:15:22]: So it's a great walking course.

PJ [0:15:25]: So you know, you add the time that you're spending not only playing golf, but just walking and having to build conversation and rapport with somebody you just met two minutes ago.

PJ [0:15:36]: Yeah.

PJ [0:15:36]: Like, you wanna have fun when you're out there, so you wanna connect with people.

Callan [0:15:41]: Are other people doing this?

Callan [0:15:42]: Or is this, like, you see that...

Callan [0:15:44]: Like, this sounds like a great idea.

PJ [0:15:46]: I don't know how many people are doing it.

PJ [0:15:47]: Like, when I thought about how to leverage and build relationships at Harden.

PJ [0:15:53]: I never wanted to be the guy that was, like, Well, he's that guy.

Callan [0:15:57]: Yeah.

Callan [0:15:57]: Yeah.

PJ [0:15:58]: Right.

PJ [0:15:58]: He came in guns blazing, trying to sell me something.

PJ [0:16:01]: Yep.

PJ [0:16:01]: It was more...

PJ [0:16:02]: Let's get to know each other first.

PJ [0:16:04]: And as we get to know each other naturally, people are gonna start asking you questions, like, Hey.

PJ [0:16:11]: I need to...

PJ [0:16:12]: Somebody to look at my four zero one k plan or hey, our agent just retired.

PJ [0:16:17]: I might need a succession.

PJ [0:16:18]: Yeah.

PJ [0:16:19]: So that's how a lot of that has come is just get to know people.

PJ [0:16:23]: And they're gonna come eventually asking you questions.

Callan [0:16:27]: They have an idea of what you do So when the trigger event happens, Yep.

Callan [0:16:32]: You're who they're gonna think about because you've already built that relationship.

Callan [0:16:35]: Sure.

Callan [0:16:36]: Love it.

Callan [0:16:36]: So you'd mentioned that these centers of influence oftentimes can come from this and what you're doing.

Callan [0:16:42]: So you've got the centers of influence, you've got the adviser program or agent program internally to be able to generate them.

Callan [0:16:49]: Okay.

Callan [0:16:49]: What's the next step?

Callan [0:16:51]: Once you've got...

Callan [0:16:52]: It's like, okay.

Callan [0:16:53]: Write profile and paper.

Callan [0:16:54]: We're going to the next step, What does that look like?

PJ [0:16:57]: Yeah.

PJ [0:16:57]: I usually start with a social meeting.

PJ [0:17:00]: So I wanna grab a lunch with a potential candidate or a coffee.

PJ [0:17:03]: And just be in a comfortable setting.

PJ [0:17:06]: I don't want that first interaction out an office where it's people might get a little nervous.

PJ [0:17:11]: They might be a little tight.

PJ [0:17:13]: I wanna have a relaxed environment, and I always start with the question of tell me about you.

PJ [0:17:21]: And if somebody immediately goes to their resume and what they do for a living, I'll stop them because I can read the resume, I know what they already do.

PJ [0:17:31]: I wanna understand who they are as a person.

PJ [0:17:32]: Are they close with their family?

PJ [0:17:35]: Do they have kids?

PJ [0:17:36]: Are they married?

PJ [0:17:37]: Where do they like to travel?

PJ [0:17:39]: Like, I wanna understand their passions, the vision that they have for themselves where they wanna be three, four, five years down the road, not just I sell this in this.

PJ [0:17:48]: Mh.

PJ [0:17:49]: And I haven't success because of that.

Callan [0:17:51]: What are you looking for there.

Callan [0:17:52]: And like, when I think about that with career changers, I think that ends up.

Callan [0:17:57]: This is my guess.

Callan [0:17:58]: But...

Callan [0:17:58]: And when I've done this from a recruiting perspective, career changes is usually a pretty clear

PJ [0:18:02]: Mh.

Callan [0:18:02]: They know why they're getting into this there's some really set reasons.

Callan [0:18:04]: Right out of college though, that's tough.

Callan [0:18:07]: How do you what are you looking for in that scenario?

PJ [0:18:10]: Yeah.

PJ [0:18:10]: I think for me, if I can get somebody to be vulnerable?

Callan [0:18:15]: Mh.

PJ [0:18:16]: In a interview process, then to me, if they're willing to be vulnerable, then they're gonna be the right person to go out and engage with clients and ask deep meaningful question.

Callan [0:18:27]: Interesting.

Callan [0:18:27]: Yeah.

PJ [0:18:28]: So that's really the biggest thing that I'm looking for, in an interview or a candidate is can they be vulnerable with me?

PJ [0:18:35]: Because I might be vulnerable with them?

Callan [0:18:38]: Yeah.

Callan [0:18:38]: Okay.

Callan [0:18:39]: As you've got this first step what's the next step?

PJ [0:18:41]: Second step with Henderson Brothers is I have our Hr team, reach out and do a screening and a personality test.

Callan [0:18:48]: So you're doing that before the personnel personality test makes total sense that you would do that one after.

Callan [0:18:53]: But even the initial screen.

Callan [0:18:54]: So you're meeting with Yeah.

PJ [0:18:56]: I I like to do the initial screen as much as I possibly can.

Callan [0:19:00]: Gotcha.

PJ [0:19:00]: Yeah.

Callan [0:19:01]: And so they're not getting there unless they're...

Callan [0:19:03]: Like, you've put some real work into this at that point.

PJ [0:19:06]: Yes.

PJ [0:19:06]: I've probably put an hour to two hours in before I send it to our Hr t.

Callan [0:19:11]: So you sent the Hr.

Callan [0:19:12]: They've done the personality screen.

Callan [0:19:14]: What are you looking for out of that?

PJ [0:19:16]: Yeah.

PJ [0:19:16]: We're trying to figure out, you know, are they wired for sales?

PJ [0:19:19]: Do they have a network that they can rely on and launch successfully?

PJ [0:19:23]: Mh.

PJ [0:19:24]: Do they fit our culture?

PJ [0:19:25]: Because we're very protective of the Henderson Brothers culture.

PJ [0:19:29]: We always say, throughout a process of are they guys like us.

PJ [0:19:34]: Guys or gals like us.

Callan [0:19:36]: Mh.

PJ [0:19:37]: And to me that's people that wanna be successful.

PJ [0:19:40]: People who have a giving mentality.

PJ [0:19:42]: It's people who wanna grow and really become a part of this fantastic culture that's a hundred and thirty four years old.

PJ [0:19:50]: Yeah.

PJ [0:19:51]: So...

Callan [0:19:52]: And so...

Callan [0:19:52]: Okay.

Callan [0:19:53]: You've made it through this.

Callan [0:19:54]: You decided you wanna go through with them.

Callan [0:19:56]: Mh.

Callan [0:19:57]: One of the things I'm really curious about is get such a high turnover, whether it's at, you know, Northwestern or Henderson Brothers.

PJ [0:20:04]: Mh.

Callan [0:20:05]: It's typically a high turnover position.

Callan [0:20:07]: Mh.

Callan [0:20:08]: What are you doing to mitigate that?

Callan [0:20:10]: Yeah.

PJ [0:20:10]: I'll say that's been the greatest success at Henderson Brothers is there's not a lot of turnover.

PJ [0:20:16]: When you walk up and down the hallways and Pittsburgh and asks to be how long they've been there.

PJ [0:20:20]: It's ten fifteen twenty, thirty years.

PJ [0:20:23]: And even the newer producers who are six, twelve, eighteen months in, they're not questioning the career, they're not questioning the development that they're getting at Henderson Brothers.

PJ [0:20:33]: I think that's been part of our greatest strength is it's not a turnover culture in our world.

Callan [0:20:40]: What are you doing differently?

PJ [0:20:41]: I think from a development standpoint, we pour a lot into them, a lot of time, a lot of resources that we're providing for producers, we're working on...

PJ [0:20:53]: And I think this is where the financial industry has done such a better job than the P&C world or even employee benefits.

PJ [0:20:59]: Financial planning industry has built out a teaming structure and ensemble.

PJ [0:21:04]: And yeah and for sure.

PJ [0:21:06]: There's connectivity for a new adviser, but there's also opportunity for them to learn from one of the best, and there's also revenue opportunity that comes from that ensemble.

PJ [0:21:16]: So we are working on building a model like that at Henderson Brothers now.

PJ [0:21:22]: Where we have a team lead.

PJ [0:21:24]: We have an eight plus producer.

PJ [0:21:26]: We have a b producer, c producer.

PJ [0:21:28]: There's revenue for everybody.

PJ [0:21:30]: So that's c producer who's zero to twelve months in the business.

PJ [0:21:33]: They're getting clients from the a and b producer.

PJ [0:21:37]: So there's revenue.

PJ [0:21:39]: There's experience happening that a producer gets to focus more on the top twenty or top thirty percent of their clients and grow that way, and that b producer is also trying to grow to get to where that is.

PJ [0:21:52]: And they're being coached towards that.

PJ [0:21:54]: So this teaming model that we're building, I think is gonna really change the trajectory of Henderson Brothers from a, you know, again, great retention, but how can we grow from hundred fifty one million, fifty two million in revenue to a hundred million over the next ten years.

PJ [0:22:11]: Yeah.

PJ [0:22:11]: Teaming is gonna be the answers.

PJ [0:22:13]: But.

Callan [0:22:14]: I always like that model, and I agree the financial services space, especially the captive, Northwestern Mutual being a great example of that when done right, Because correct me if I'm wrong.

Callan [0:22:24]: I mean, what I'm hearing and you say is essentially, that new producer coming in has the opportunity to work the smaller client Mh of that a producer.

Callan [0:22:32]: Yeah.

Callan [0:22:33]: That a producer could be they might have a niche.

Callan [0:22:36]: Maybe they've got all the manufacturing companies in the area.

Callan [0:22:39]: And those are very large companies.

Callan [0:22:40]: And so when they get a smaller company that comes in just by share their reputation, They're getting a referral from one of their top clients, that doesn't make sense for that producer to work on that.

Callan [0:22:53]: But since there's incentives all the way down that c producer can work that deal, which could be a great account for them.

PJ [0:23:01]: Absolutely.

Callan [0:23:01]: And it kinda lighten the load a little bit on them feeling that they have to go out and go get the absolute Mh.

Callan [0:23:07]: Top of the top.

Callan [0:23:07]: Yeah.

PJ [0:23:08]: It takes time for a new producer, whether it's financial or property casualty benefits.

PJ [0:23:13]: It takes time to go get in front of a hundred thousand dollar revenue account.

PJ [0:23:19]: Right?

PJ [0:23:19]: And that sales cycle might take three or four years for now before they see it.

PJ [0:23:23]: So here, you're getting experience day one working on accounts.

PJ [0:23:28]: And whether you're...

PJ [0:23:30]: It's financial planning or this side of the business, I've never and almost twenty years seen somebody be successful being on an island by themselves.

PJ [0:23:39]: Yeah.

PJ [0:23:39]: So if we can build out these teams strategically day one, as they come into the business only upside really for them.

Callan [0:23:48]: Did you bring that over from your experience?

PJ [0:23:50]: Yeah.

PJ [0:23:50]: That was what, I think one of the things that our CEO and president were really aligned with me on as we were having these conversations without me joining them was how do we grow?

PJ [0:24:02]: How do we build out bigger expectations and how can we build out these teams?

PJ [0:24:06]: Yeah.

PJ [0:24:07]: And that was a lot of what I had experienced doing?

Callan [0:24:10]: So I've got a question.

Callan [0:24:11]: How that segmentation on the client side makes total sense.

Callan [0:24:15]: Mh.

Callan [0:24:15]: How do you segment from, like, the actual service offerings?

Callan [0:24:18]: Meaning, like, because, I, again, I didn't realize that the financial services side was that large.

Callan [0:24:23]: That's a good size.

Callan [0:24:24]: So you've got the financial services and, like, true advising on that side.

Callan [0:24:28]: Yep.

Callan [0:24:28]: And you've got a good benefits book and you got a good P&C book.

Callan [0:24:31]: Now oftentimes, I know the P&C and the benefits could be from the same producer, But does the producer to get a four one k are they bringing in a it's all siloed.

Callan [0:24:39]: Okay.

Callan [0:24:40]: Gotcha.

PJ [0:24:41]: Yeah.

PJ [0:24:41]: So the four zero one k and asset wealth management team, they're separate from P&C.

PJ [0:24:47]: So there's really nobody that has cross licensing.

Callan [0:24:50]: Okay.

PJ [0:24:50]: I think I'm might to actually be the only one at Henderson Brothers that has the licensing across all three.

PJ [0:24:56]: Yep.

PJ [0:24:56]: Because of my background.

PJ [0:24:57]: Yeah.

Callan [0:24:58]: Yeah.

Callan [0:24:58]: That makes total sense.

Callan [0:24:59]: Okay.

Callan [0:24:59]: So they've came on.

Callan [0:25:00]: You've got this team structure.

Callan [0:25:02]: Mh.

Callan [0:25:03]: In segmentation of clients.

Callan [0:25:05]: What are you doing to keep the top producers?

PJ [0:25:09]: Yeah.

PJ [0:25:09]: Well, I think that's the danger of this business right now is how do I retain and keep my top person.

PJ [0:25:17]: And I think the frustrations that the top producers have is they feel like their hands are tied.

PJ [0:25:23]: And they can't continue to grow because of how many clients they have in the service that is needed to be provided to keep those clients.

PJ [0:25:31]: So as we build this out, think about if I can free up our top producer to spend five more hours a week being client facing or networking with their top clients or Mh.

PJ [0:25:45]: Posting events for their top clients?

PJ [0:25:47]: How much faster can they grow and be able to leverage the producer underneath them and that second or third producer down.

Callan [0:25:55]: Yeah.

Callan [0:25:55]: Well, and then the account size has totally changed.

Callan [0:25:57]: Because then the B's are actually now getting those

PJ [0:26:00]: A The a becomes a b.

PJ [0:26:01]: Yeah.

PJ [0:26:02]: Two years from now.

PJ [0:26:03]: And now that B producer.

PJ [0:26:04]: Yeah.

PJ [0:26:05]: Their book is growing.

Callan [0:26:06]: No.

Callan [0:26:06]: A hundred percent.

Callan [0:26:07]: So I wanna talk a little bit about So you walk through this funnel.

PJ [0:26:11]: Mh.

Callan [0:26:12]: I love this strategy that you're doing to retain top producers and develop and grow new producers.

Callan [0:26:18]: Let's talk about the Columbus office.

Callan [0:26:21]: Sure.

Callan [0:26:21]: One of the things that I find very interesting is you did two kind of big switches.

Callan [0:26:25]: You went from a career captive agent model to a truly independent model.

PJ [0:26:30]: Mh.

Callan [0:26:30]: And then you went from a financial services model to a P&C.

Callan [0:26:34]: P and services, but a P&C model.

Callan [0:26:37]: Sure.

Callan [0:26:37]: And you created this new office from scratch in Columbus.

Callan [0:26:41]: And Henderson big agency didn't have a name in Columbus, though.

Callan [0:26:45]: They didn't have a brand, I should say, In Columbus.

Callan [0:26:47]: Where did you start?

Callan [0:26:49]: What was the piece that was like, okay.

Callan [0:26:52]: We gotta go here Because, I mean, you probably had some network just from what you had said and the the people around here, like, naturally, if you're gonna be in that network and doing the things you're doing?

Callan [0:27:01]: You're probably gonna have other P&C context.

Callan [0:27:02]: Where did you start?

PJ [0:27:04]: This the change and transition was interesting to say the least, and I still can't believe it happened.

PJ [0:27:11]: And I can't believe Tom R and Dan Costa to our CEO president.

PJ [0:27:16]: Wanted me to start this office from scratch because I had zero background in P&C and zero background and benefits.

PJ [0:27:22]: Yeah.

PJ [0:27:23]: But we...

PJ [0:27:23]: The three of us felt that I was the right person to take the opportunity.

PJ [0:27:28]: And I could figure out the P&C and benefits over time.

PJ [0:27:32]: So I looked at this, you know, as an opportunity last April when we started this and I joined Henderson Brothers was, how do we build the Columbus culture and how do we build a leadership team in Columbus first and foremost?

Callan [0:27:47]: Mh.

PJ [0:27:48]: So in June of last year, we hired Steve Christians, who's been in the employee benefits space for twenty five to twenty eight years somewhere in there.

PJ [0:27:58]: And he's been at big shops, the willis of the world, and then he's been at some boutique shops.

PJ [0:28:03]: Sis steep brings a great wealth of knowledge, and he's the right person to be our market leader in benefits.

PJ [0:28:09]: Second hire was actually a career changer who lives in my neighborhood, I call them up for a coffee to sell them personal lines.

PJ [0:28:17]: And before I go into the spiel about personal lines, just ask him like, what's going on with you?

PJ [0:28:23]: And he says to me.

PJ [0:28:24]: Well, I'm thinking about making a career change.

PJ [0:28:27]: So the conversation flipped pretty quickly dude.

PJ [0:28:29]: Well, I'm hiring and I need people and bodies right now.

PJ [0:28:33]: Yeah.

PJ [0:28:33]: But and joking lisa Because he was the right guy.

Callan [0:28:36]: Right.

PJ [0:28:37]: To join us, and then we able to bring over to very experienced commercial producers from a competitor.

PJ [0:28:43]: And those introductions came from the network that I had already had.

PJ [0:28:48]: And then our last producer was referred by the career changer.

PJ [0:28:52]: He's our personal lines market leader.

PJ [0:28:54]: He ran a shelter office for ten years.

Callan [0:28:57]: Mh.

PJ [0:28:57]: And was tired of being, you know, a one man show and wanted to be a part of a team.

PJ [0:29:01]: So we're at six people pretty quickly and really looking to grow the benefits team by two more people this year.

Callan [0:29:09]: Okay.

Callan [0:29:09]: That all sounds like it went swimming.

Callan [0:29:12]: Mh.

Callan [0:29:12]: What were the though?

Callan [0:29:14]: What were the snags that you ran into or, like, oh, this is different?

PJ [0:29:17]: Well, you said it earlier, nobody knows who the heck Henderson Brothers is.

Callan [0:29:22]: Mh.

PJ [0:29:22]: And they didn't know if we were a painting company or an insurance company.

PJ [0:29:25]: Right?

PJ [0:29:26]: Yeah.

PJ [0:29:26]: So we had to...

PJ [0:29:28]: Make some right decisions on how to splash the network of who we are and why we're coming to town.

Callan [0:29:35]: How'd do you do that?

PJ [0:29:36]: We hosted a few big events with, you know, the network that I had built here with some of the hires that have come board, inviting their networks.

PJ [0:29:44]: We'd leverage Pittsburgh because we do have some clients in Ohio.

PJ [0:29:48]: So leverage the relationships and the right people from Pittsburgh to come and join us at those events as well.

PJ [0:29:54]: So the events that stuff has gone great.

Callan [0:29:57]: But you time.

Callan [0:29:58]: What does an event look like?

Callan [0:29:59]: Can you break that down?

PJ [0:30:01]: You know, it's really strategy around who are the right people to put together.

PJ [0:30:06]: You know, we hosted a happy hour maybe two months ago, and there was maybe about thirty people there.

PJ [0:30:12]: And we thought about it from?

PJ [0:30:14]: Okay.

PJ [0:30:14]: How can we be a quarterback of relationships?

PJ [0:30:18]: So we look at this person from this company?

PJ [0:30:21]: We want them as a client for sure, but what are the crossover that they have to another contact that we have, and we wanna get those people in the room together see if they can help each other.

Callan [0:30:33]: Mh.

PJ [0:30:34]: And now we quarterback back that, and that creates some loyalty and just trust, as you build out in this market.

Callan [0:30:40]: Are there any tips that you have on the events like timing or venue or...

Callan [0:30:46]: You want it to

PJ [0:30:47]: be a nice venue.

PJ [0:30:48]: Right?

PJ [0:30:48]: You want it to be an experience.

PJ [0:30:50]: So, you know, I've done some events private bourbon bar, no solicit listening in town.

PJ [0:30:55]: Yep.

PJ [0:30:56]: We've done some stuff at Heart fields.

PJ [0:30:57]: We've done some stuff at the rooftop at Vas.

PJ [0:31:00]: Mh.

PJ [0:31:01]: So again, just create experiences that people don't always get.

Callan [0:31:06]: Yeah.

Callan [0:31:06]: Makes total of sense.

PJ [0:31:07]: You know, We're looking at planning a big fall event where, you know, we are gonna look at renting out the largest suite at the horseshoe, and it allows for people to then get a tour and have their kids come.

PJ [0:31:19]: They get to...

PJ [0:31:20]: You out on the field, kicking field goals and stuff.

PJ [0:31:23]: So that's a any event that people are gonna talk about for.

Callan [0:31:27]: Yeah...

Callan [0:31:27]: I'm available.

PJ [0:31:28]: Yeah.

PJ [0:31:28]: Take care.

PJ [0:31:28]: You're in.

Callan [0:31:30]: I'm I'm am...

Callan [0:31:31]: I've just realized I'm free that date.

Callan [0:31:33]: And just people to know the horseshoe, the greatest stadium in the world, Ohio state.

Callan [0:31:36]: You would say that Right As a Wisconsin badger, you would say greatest stadium

PJ [0:31:40]: I can't randall old horse.

Callan [0:31:43]: Okay.

Callan [0:31:43]: What were the results of this?

Callan [0:31:44]: You mentioned how many producers, how long did that take and Okay.

Callan [0:31:48]: Now they're marketing under this new name, what is that looking like?

PJ [0:31:52]: We're continuing to just figure out how we strategically get involved in the community more.

Callan [0:31:59]: So...

Callan [0:31:59]: What does that mean?

PJ [0:32:00]: Yeah.

PJ [0:32:00]: You know, looking at different associations.

PJ [0:32:03]: Mh.

PJ [0:32:03]: From a partnership standpoint, personal lines, how do we help the personal lines business grown in Columbus Dublin, organizations that I've become a part of with...

PJ [0:32:13]: You know, like I just became a board member for the Dublin chamber of commerce.

PJ [0:32:16]: Mh.

PJ [0:32:17]: A part of a group called Columbus CEO forum.

PJ [0:32:20]: So it's just hitting feel out there and really...

PJ [0:32:23]: It's almost like, you know, the seven degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon movies.

PJ [0:32:27]: Right?

Callan [0:32:28]: Yep.

Callan [0:32:28]: Course.

PJ [0:32:28]: That's what we're trying to do right now.

PJ [0:32:29]: Yeah.

PJ [0:32:30]: And that's the most important thing is just let's get out there as much as we can, let's get involved, let's care about what we're doing.

PJ [0:32:36]: And as people see us more often, things are starting to really happen.

PJ [0:32:41]: And people are really being open to our story.

PJ [0:32:45]: Yeah.

PJ [0:32:46]: You know, a hundred and thirty plus year old company, third generation family owned first expansion because our business quite frankly.

PJ [0:32:53]: It's been taken over quite a bit by private equity.

PJ [0:32:56]: And that's changed the game.

PJ [0:32:57]: So people in in Columbus.

PJ [0:32:59]: There's a lot of family owned businesses that wanna do business with other family owned business.

Callan [0:33:04]: So you ran into some of those snags.

Callan [0:33:06]: Like because it's a little bit different.

Callan [0:33:07]: We didn't have a brand.

Callan [0:33:08]: We bill a lot of these events You know, when you look the next five, ten years.

Callan [0:33:14]: Mh.

Callan [0:33:15]: And let's just keep it for justice Columbus office.

Callan [0:33:17]: I know you touched on some of these things.

Callan [0:33:19]: But...

Callan [0:33:19]: So you mentioned that you wanna get to a hundred million.

Callan [0:33:22]: You're at fifty or so million with the total business wanna get to hundred million.

Callan [0:33:25]: Mh.

Callan [0:33:25]: We'll closes that gap.

PJ [0:33:27]: Yeah.

PJ [0:33:27]: I think we continue building out our team here with some experienced producers.

PJ [0:33:34]: Twenty twenty seven, I'm gonna start building out the financial side with the four zero one k business.

PJ [0:33:39]: Those are the quick immediate things that I'm working on.

PJ [0:33:42]: And I think from a vision standpoint, once we have some of that team built, now we have to start building the second layer with service and models here locally because Quite, frankly, Pittsburgh been great and at servicing and helping us here locally, but we're gonna start busting at the seams and Pittsburgh.

PJ [0:33:59]: So we have to have the service model here to where we don't have to worry about anything being slipping through the cracks.

PJ [0:34:06]: And I see this here as an operation where we can grow to forty fifty people and add ten to fifteen million dollars of revenue to Henderson Brothers bottom line over the next decade.

PJ [0:34:19]: Sure.

Callan [0:34:20]: You know, if somebody's coming up to you.

Callan [0:34:22]: And let's say they're an agent in California that wants to open an office in Portland, Oregon.

Callan [0:34:29]: Mh.

Callan [0:34:30]: And they're like, hey.

Callan [0:34:31]: I listened to this, I heard what you did in opening the Columbus office with Henderson Brothers, what's the first piece of advice that you're giving them?

PJ [0:34:41]: Find one superstar advocate and pour all you can into that person.

PJ [0:34:47]: And make sure you've built a strategy around a network that can help you launch successfully.

PJ [0:34:55]: One warning I would give them is also don't rush into a real estate decision.

PJ [0:35:00]: Okay.

PJ [0:35:01]: I'm learning that right now.

Callan [0:35:05]: Meaning, like, long term lease in the wrong spot.

PJ [0:35:07]: Or Yeah.

Callan [0:35:08]: Yeah Yeah

PJ [0:35:08]: You know, because we have a great space.

PJ [0:35:10]: Don't get me wrong, but it was like, well, we have to build it, and then they will come.

PJ [0:35:14]: Yeah.

PJ [0:35:15]: And I signed we signed a lease in June.

PJ [0:35:18]: So like, found a spot in two weeks later, we sign a lease.

PJ [0:35:24]: Yeah.

PJ [0:35:24]: While it's a great office.

PJ [0:35:26]: It's not the most efficient or our business and what we're doing and from a growth standpoint.

PJ [0:35:31]: So you know, we're call it, fifteen months into a lease and gonna have to start looking for a space.

Callan [0:35:39]: Yeah.

PJ [0:35:39]: Here by the end of the year.

Callan [0:35:41]: Meaning, give yourself some flexibility because you might just outgrow that thing faster

PJ [0:35:45]: I think we're pretty much at that point where one more higher.

PJ [0:35:49]: We're gonna be busting at the seats.

Callan [0:35:51]: You know, good problem.

Callan [0:35:52]: Good.

Callan [0:35:52]: Yeah.

Callan [0:35:53]: Say.

Callan [0:35:53]: Some might call it a humble brag.

Callan [0:35:54]: Mh bust.

Callan [0:35:55]: Some might call it a humble brag.

Callan [0:35:58]: A little bit.

Callan [0:35:58]: So what about yourself?

Callan [0:36:00]: You've built this, You know how to build the machine.

Callan [0:36:03]: Yeah.

Callan [0:36:03]: You kinda talked a little bit where Henderson some brothers go in the next five to ten years with this?

Callan [0:36:07]: If you and I, ten years time or having this conversation.

Callan [0:36:11]: What are you doing?

Callan [0:36:13]: What does it look like?

PJ [0:36:14]: Ten years from now, hopefully, it's like, a hundred and fifty rounds of golf.

Callan [0:36:17]: Yeah.

Callan [0:36:17]: Auto fifty rounds.

Callan [0:36:18]: Yeah.

Callan [0:36:18]: That makes sense.

PJ [0:36:20]: I think ten years from now for me.

PJ [0:36:21]: It's not about a book that I've built myself.

PJ [0:36:25]: It's more and my passion is all in leadership has always been around helping people get clarity around a vision for themselves and their families and where they wanna go.

PJ [0:36:37]: And I just wanna, be to play a small part in helping them get.

PJ [0:36:42]: To that vision for themselves and their families.

PJ [0:36:45]: So that to me is the strategy that I look at building out over the next ten years is, how can we be the destination shop in Columbus, How can we have a great culture.

PJ [0:36:57]: How can we have people who are exceeding expectations because they want to and they're checking the box on great life experiences for themselves or families, their kids?

PJ [0:37:07]: That's where I wanna.

Callan [0:37:10]: Why is that meaningful to you?

PJ [0:37:12]: I think when you help other people succeed, you're gonna succeed as well and be able to live at the dreams that you have?

Callan [0:37:21]: Yeah.

Callan [0:37:21]: I agree.

Callan [0:37:22]: I think that when I look back at my career, most rewarding times by far is seeing someone's career developed that you had a small piece Mh and helping.

Callan [0:37:33]: I think it's by far the most rewarding.

PJ [0:37:35]: Well, it's, I mean, I...

PJ [0:37:36]: Northwestern seeing people who started at twenty three twenty four years old, get married by their first house and it was all stuff that we helped them visualize and put on paper and share with us.

PJ [0:37:50]: Like What does that house look like?

PJ [0:37:52]: Where is it?

PJ [0:37:53]: What color is it?

PJ [0:37:54]: Where in of all that stuff?

PJ [0:37:56]: And I've even been fortunate enough to be a part of some of their lives to a point where I've married two people that have worked with me?

PJ [0:38:03]: Really?

PJ [0:38:04]: Yeah.

PJ [0:38:04]: So I mean, how cool is that.

Callan [0:38:07]: Yeah.

Callan [0:38:07]: That's awesome.

Callan [0:38:08]: PJ, this has been great, man.

Callan [0:38:10]: Thanks for coming on and breaking everything down.

Callan [0:38:12]: This was a lot of fun.

PJ [0:38:12]: My pleasure.

PJ [0:38:13]: Thanks for having me.

Callan [0:38:14]: Absolutely.