Jeff Cohen on Why Benchmarking and Loss Data Change How Brokers Place Coverage

Jeff [0:00:00]: If benchmarking is what is everybody else doing, lost data becomes...

Jeff [0:00:04]: Why is everybody doing?

Jeff [0:00:06]: You think five million dollars is perfectly adequate cover, but this loss happen, and it was eight million.

Jeff [0:00:12]: This loss happened and it was ten million and there's another loss out there an outlier perhaps, but that was a twelve and a half million dollars loss.

Jeff [0:00:19]: And let's look at the details surrounding that to decide whether or not.

Jeff [0:00:23]: You really have the right cover.

Callan [0:00:27]: Welcome to the Insurance Growth Lab, where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance industry.

Callan [0:00:35]: Callan Harrington founder Flashgrowth And in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers, and sure tech, and top brokers to break down one specific initiative.

Callan [0:00:47]: Whether it's how they marketed a product, scale to channel or solved a specific a challenge.

Callan [0:00:52]: It's no fluff just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:57]: J.

Callan [0:01:02]: Yes.

Callan [0:01:03]: I think I've only known you about J until I started researching the episode of I'm like, I, named chef cohen.

Jeff [0:01:11]: I had no idea.

Jeff [0:01:11]: I answered everything.

Jeff [0:01:12]: Perfect.

Jeff [0:01:13]: All good.

Callan [0:01:14]: So where I wanna start this off is can you tell me about this database that you've been working on for now over twenty years?

Callan [0:01:22]: What is it?

Callan [0:01:23]: What have you learned from this?

Jeff [0:01:25]: Sure.

Jeff [0:01:25]: When you say this database, I'm going to actually stretch that into two pieces.

Jeff [0:01:29]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:01:30]: An insurance program, benchmarking database, programs.

Jeff [0:01:34]: Premiums, limits, retention, rate per million, all of the elements of coverage in place, and then the second database, a database of losses.

Jeff [0:01:46]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:01:47]: Loss events.

Jeff [0:01:48]: Initially, we were at a base of losses.

Jeff [0:01:51]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:01:51]: Loss events.

Jeff [0:01:52]: Initially, we were looking at low frequency, high severity.

Jeff [0:01:56]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:01:57]: Big ugly things that happened and it's just meta and crowded in every direction.

Jeff [0:02:03]: But to take it back to the original original inception point for this data, it was sometime around two thousand and three, we took on the Rims benchmark contract to produce this hard copy book once a year.

Jeff [0:02:20]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:02:21]: Based on a survey, a hard copy survey

Callan [0:02:24]: of

Jeff [0:02:24]: Rims members, you know Yeah giant companies that have a risk management department.

Jeff [0:02:28]: And we took all that data and said, you know, well, you know, utilities are here and this is what they look like.

Jeff [0:02:37]: And you know, there are fifteen or sixteen different chapters in this book.

Jeff [0:02:40]: Our big selling point to land this contract.

Jeff [0:02:43]: You know, now we're talking over two decades ago was that we would not only publish this data in the book.

Jeff [0:02:50]: The book had been published annually since I don't know.

Jeff [0:02:53]: Nineteen seventy nine.

Jeff [0:02:54]: Ago something.

Jeff [0:02:55]: Like a junior high school year book, we propose to put this data online.

Jeff [0:03:00]: And the real benefit of that was conceptually that you could say, well, my client isn't exactly a utility.

Jeff [0:03:06]: They're in part to utility and they're in part something else, so let's take those two datasets sets and, yep, blend them together, which you couldn't do by putting your finger in the book and flipping back and forth between pages.

Jeff [0:03:17]: And as soon as we did that, we realized that we could go to brokerage, wholesaler and retailers and we could encourage them to share their data as well.

Jeff [0:03:29]: Remember that all of this data is an.

Jeff [0:03:32]: It matches filters that the user always selects, but we're not out there telling you well, this is Walmart o program.

Jeff [0:03:39]: Right.

Jeff [0:03:40]: We're telling you These are companies that are publicly traded that have a market cap between here and here that do this.

Jeff [0:03:46]: And as long as we have enough data to fill out your that match to your field, we can give you an output and protect the anonymity, the confidentiality of all of the contributed data.

Jeff [0:03:57]: And so this database grew and grew through the years because as it turns out when a broker approaches an uninsured about some particular type of coverage recommendation.

Jeff [0:04:09]: Inevitably, the insured is going to turn around and go, well, if I need this cover, how much cover do I need?

Jeff [0:04:15]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:04:16]: And that's an interesting question because it requires the broker to have lots of experience in that category have lots of inputs and resources to be able to say, well, other grocery stores that look like you do this this in that.

Callan [0:04:31]: Mh But if you

Jeff [0:04:31]: don't have that book of business and you're a generalist, What do you fall back on?

Jeff [0:04:35]: And so for us, that answer was insurance program benchmarking.

Jeff [0:04:38]: If we filter the data to look at other peers, This is what peers are doing.

Jeff [0:04:43]: They're buying this much and they're paying approximately this much for it.

Jeff [0:04:47]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:04:47]: So the broker then can tell that board of directors that CFO, that treasurer well.

Jeff [0:04:52]: This is my experience based on the clients that I...

Jeff [0:04:57]: But then I consulted this third party independent source of information, and I'm showing that to you as well to suggest that everybody else has a layer of coverage that looks like this, but you don't or everybody else buys a million, but you don't.

Jeff [0:05:13]: Everybody else buys more, whatever.

Jeff [0:05:15]: Like, all of these different comparisons to be made with data.

Jeff [0:05:19]: That's benchmarking.

Jeff [0:05:21]: Benchmarking shows that, you know, you're a construction company with a hundred million in revenue, and you think a million of umbrella is the right level.

Jeff [0:05:29]: But all the other companies that look like you they buy five million.

Jeff [0:05:33]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:05:33]: Maybe you should buy more.

Jeff [0:05:35]: Now, the flaw this approach is that it doesn't take into account your claims history or anything else is simply matching cover to like companies, which is why we started looking at losses.

Jeff [0:05:47]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:05:48]: If benchmarking is what is everybody else doing.

Jeff [0:05:51]: Lost data becomes...

Jeff [0:05:53]: Why is everybody doing?

Jeff [0:05:55]: And here I'm going to clearly distinguish between claims data, which is not what we collect.

Jeff [0:06:01]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:06:01]: And loss data.

Jeff [0:06:03]: For us, we are collecting economic loss data.

Jeff [0:06:06]: This actually happened.

Jeff [0:06:07]: You know, if a carrier pays a five million dollar claim.

Jeff [0:06:11]: The factory burned to the ground, but the the carrier writes you a check for five million.

Jeff [0:06:15]: That's not the sum total of the loss.

Jeff [0:06:17]: That's the sum total of the carrier obligation based on the claim.

Jeff [0:06:21]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:06:21]: We are after the sum total of the loss where after response costs.

Jeff [0:06:25]: And and litigation and fines and penalties and all of the things that can be known.

Jeff [0:06:31]: We source all of this data from publicly reference material, newspapers and jury verdict and Sec settlements and the like.

Jeff [0:06:39]: So there's a hard copy that supports every entry in this database.

Jeff [0:06:43]: And because it's all mine from the public domain, we tell you what companies we're talking about.

Jeff [0:06:49]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:06:49]: So whereas benchmark is going to minimize the information back to you, lost data won't, in our perspective is always showing you.

Jeff [0:06:58]: Here are the three company examples that you need to look at.

Jeff [0:07:01]: You think five million dollars is perfectly adequate cover, but this loss happened, and it was eight million.

Jeff [0:07:07]: This loss happened and it was ten million And there's another loss out there, An outlier perhaps, but that was a twelve and a half million dollar loss.

Jeff [0:07:14]: And let's look at the details surrounding that to decide whether or not.

Jeff [0:07:18]: You really have the right cover.

Callan [0:07:20]: Well, what I'm hearing you say on that is It's not that claims that it isn't important, it's just that if the limit was five million, they pay out five million, that's it.

Callan [0:07:28]: That doesn't mean that's the total loss, the loss could be considerably higher than that five hundred million,

Jeff [0:07:32]: a hundred percent.

Jeff [0:07:33]: That's exactly it.

Jeff [0:07:33]: So for us, claims data is an incomplete view.

Jeff [0:07:37]: Of the loss event.

Jeff [0:07:39]: If you're gonna look at it from that perspective.

Jeff [0:07:41]: We wanna be able to help organizations policy holders insurance what have you.

Jeff [0:07:46]: Completely understand well, what types of big ugly things have already happened.

Jeff [0:07:50]: Right?

Jeff [0:07:51]: And this idea that as an owner as a prince as a CEO .

Jeff [0:07:54]: Well, that couldn't happen in my business.

Jeff [0:07:56]: Oh, yeah.

Jeff [0:07:57]: Well, here are five examples of where it happened to businesses across the street from you.

Jeff [0:08:01]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:08:02]: But perhaps you're a better.

Jeff [0:08:03]: So well You know, it's this idea of helping people to leverage data, which is in effect what the data component of our business is doing in order to transform that generalist, if you will, into a hardcore specialist.

Jeff [0:08:20]: When it comes to companies like yours.

Jeff [0:08:23]: This is what companies like yours are doing behavior wise, this is what they're buying in terms of cover.

Jeff [0:08:28]: And this is why.

Jeff [0:08:29]: They have this covers because these types of ugly things happen.

Jeff [0:08:33]: And the crazy thing about being in the loss data collection business, Colin is that human beings are very creative getting it trouble.

Jeff [0:08:41]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:08:42]: And and as it turns out, there's no shortage of this information, once you figure out how to find it, and then matching it, database it, making it usable as a whole another layer of effort, but eminent possible.

Callan [0:08:57]: Well, that's where...

Callan [0:08:58]: And I'm glad you broke it down the way that you broke that down because that's really where I wanna focus today, And, you know, we talked about this before.

Callan [0:09:05]: But I was, I don't think there's probably anybody more qualified to talk about benchmarking and lost data than yourself.

Callan [0:09:11]: You were the president of adviser that's sold to Zywave in twenty twenty.

Callan [0:09:14]: Yes.

Callan [0:09:15]: Z wave has over fifteen thousand insurance companies.

Callan [0:09:18]: Top two hundred carrier families, every one of the top one hundred brokers is on it, and I'm reading this data point, you're sitting on over a million verified loss events.

Callan [0:09:27]: It's a pretty significant number.

Jeff [0:09:30]: The fascinating thing anything about this is that the data is now so extensive.

Jeff [0:09:33]: That you could pick any industry or subset.

Jeff [0:09:36]: I code one two three or a code or what have you.

Jeff [0:09:40]: You could pick any sort of geography and this is global.

Jeff [0:09:43]: This is not necessarily just Us.

Jeff [0:09:45]: So You could pick any company type or company sized I'm only interested in companies that have between this many employees and that many employees, con companies.

Jeff [0:09:54]: These companies, they just make candy.

Jeff [0:09:56]: Wow.

Jeff [0:09:57]: Here are hundreds of things that go wrong, and they're not just the things that you would expect, like, if I looked at any sort of food product business, I would expect that there's a product liability component to this.

Jeff [0:10:08]: Well, there's also employment practice liability and cyber and all these other things that happen.

Jeff [0:10:14]: Because we have the losses to showcase them.

Callan [0:10:17]: As somebody that loves sour candy, I would never read a single one.

Callan [0:10:21]: I like, I couldn't know about any.

Callan [0:10:24]: I have to think that it's perfect and nothing will ever change from it

Jeff [0:10:29]: I'm delighted to visit with you today in Columbus, Ohio and be in this very cool studio with you.

Jeff [0:10:35]: And I did it as a day trip, but as you saw, I pack an overnight back just in case, because I'm just familiar with all the things that might not go the way it was planned.

Callan [0:10:46]: I love that.

Callan [0:10:46]: And so I think one of the things that's happening right now.

Callan [0:10:49]: And I'll disclose Zywave s is a climb, and I wanna state that because I don't want this to necessarily be a sales pitch for Zywave s.

Jeff [0:10:58]: Nor do.

Callan [0:10:59]: But one of the things that I think that there's a couple of things I think Z wave is doing that's very interesting right now.

Callan [0:11:05]: And Z wave,

Jeff [0:11:06]: but I mean, anybody that's

Callan [0:11:07]: been in the industry for long time.

Callan [0:11:09]: No Z wave with broker briefcase really led the charge on helping a commercial producer be a trusted adviser.

Callan [0:11:17]: And I think AI is forcing this conversation more in that people are all saying, well, you gotta be a trusted adviser.

Callan [0:11:24]: Right now with AI coming on here, everybody going to sound great.

Callan [0:11:27]: So...

Callan [0:11:28]: And if your transactional, AI is gonna take that from you?

Callan [0:11:31]: That hasn't happened yet, that do I think that some of the more transactional business right will have an impact Sure.

Callan [0:11:37]: I think It'll don't have an impact, but they're being told to be a trusted adviser, but it's like, okay, Well what I need to do.

Callan [0:11:43]: Well, we just need to be a trusted adviser.

Callan [0:11:45]: No one's telling them, no one's helping.

Callan [0:11:47]: I don't wanna to say nobody.

Callan [0:11:48]: There's a lot of great advisors that I've seen out there, the Chris Par, the Ryan Hand are doing an excellent job of teaching what they're doing.

Callan [0:11:57]: But I do wanna pull this back a minute and talk about benchmarking and loss analysis in that I believe is a great way.

Callan [0:12:05]: It's a great step in the direction to be a trusted adviser.

Callan [0:12:10]: And so I wanna dive into this where in you already gave a couple of great examples.

Callan [0:12:14]: What are the things now that Let's just say smaller to middle market agencies have access to that...

Callan [0:12:22]: And this isn't a knock on these companies.

Callan [0:12:24]: I think they've done a great job of this for many years that Ao and Marsh have had for many, many years.

Jeff [0:12:30]: Well, There's a lot to unpack there.

Jeff [0:12:32]: But I guess where I'll start is by suggesting that the playing field, you've got three brokers or agents in a basement in Louisville, Kentucky.

Jeff [0:12:42]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:12:42]: And you've got...

Jeff [0:12:43]: Gallagher and Ae and Marsh and these giants out there.

Jeff [0:12:47]: Yep.

Jeff [0:12:47]: And that playing field in my perspective is leveling.

Jeff [0:12:51]: It's not leveled.

Jeff [0:12:52]: Right.

Jeff [0:12:52]: Because certainly the resources of a very large global brokerage or radically distinct from my basement scenario.

Callan [0:13:00]: But it's almost a content with Ai.

Callan [0:13:01]: Right?

Callan [0:13:02]: Before the best content could go to who can pay the best content writers.

Callan [0:13:07]: Absolutely.

Callan [0:13:08]: Everybody else now, it's too big Coming.

Jeff [0:13:10]: It's becoming more available?

Callan [0:13:13]: Exactly.

Jeff [0:13:13]: And so the next question is how do you leverage that in that pursuit of becoming for a trusted adviser.

Jeff [0:13:20]: And I think that the answer lies in a fun way.

Jeff [0:13:24]: And so I'm gonna take you back because you open the door to this...

Jeff [0:13:28]: Always been around a broke a briefcase.

Jeff [0:13:29]: Of course.

Jeff [0:13:30]: Absolutely as z we've got started, let's call it in the mid nineteen nineties spun out of the Frank hack brokerage and broke briefcase was often and running.

Jeff [0:13:38]: In fact, when...

Jeff [0:13:39]: When I first met the CEO of Zywave .

Jeff [0:13:41]: He started to pitch me on, like, why this tie up could be really beneficial Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, I know all about you guys.

Jeff [0:13:48]: I never thought that our company competed against Zywave .

Jeff [0:13:52]: But we definitely fought for the same sort of scarce dollars in the wallet of a brokerage.

Callan [0:13:58]: It's a an adviser.

Callan [0:13:58]: Yeah.

Callan [0:13:59]: Yeah.

Callan [0:13:59]: Okay.

Callan [0:13:59]: Gotcha.

Jeff [0:14:00]: And so we were doing something that was a little unique.

Jeff [0:14:02]: We were standalone alone completely separate from the workflow, which meant that a client of ours who was licensing our software had to go to it as an additional step.

Jeff [0:14:13]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:14:13]: And humans just don't necessarily do things as a one off.

Jeff [0:14:18]: They get into patterns and this is how they approach things and we knew that always hindered our growth.

Jeff [0:14:23]: We wanted to be part of a platform.

Jeff [0:14:25]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:14:26]: We wanted to be part of a workflow.

Callan [0:14:28]: Yeah.

Callan [0:14:28]: Absolutely.

Jeff [0:14:28]: And Zywave have offered that, and we jumped at it.

Jeff [0:14:31]: And to Zywave‘s credit, all of our great sauce, if you will, is thoroughly integrated into all of Zywave’s offerings.

Jeff [0:14:41]: Today, AI somewhat negate that necessity.

Jeff [0:14:45]: And what I mean by that is AI can dip into the right database.

Jeff [0:14:49]: Pull the information, assemble it in a format that looks like it was all one.

Jeff [0:14:55]: AI can prepare things.

Jeff [0:14:57]: AI is super efficient at doing the dr aspects, go here, get this, yep, pull this read this, summarize this, put it here, put it there.

Jeff [0:15:07]: But that's not that ability to do those things is not what transforms somebody into becoming a trusted adviser.

Jeff [0:15:14]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:15:14]: The trusted adviser part still comes from strapping on.

Jeff [0:15:18]: Your brain nice and tight and thinking about your clients business?

Jeff [0:15:23]: And what are the issues and factors and elements of your clients business that you need to worry about?

Jeff [0:15:30]: In addition to the owner of that business?

Jeff [0:15:32]: Then how can you make that owner more more aware of where some of these pitfalls and potholes lie, they would deter that business from achieving its growth trajectory that they're on.

Jeff [0:15:44]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:15:44]: And so I think that in some ways, I think in some ways I gotta update all my files and and all the stuff in my spreadsheets and put this into my Ams and do this and do that...

Jeff [0:15:56]: It's almost like a crotch in a way.

Jeff [0:15:58]: Like, I gotta do all the stuff before I can actually do the core stuff that I really I really get paid to do, which is to consult advise, my policy holder, on ways that make them more safety conscious, more risk ave diverse.

Jeff [0:16:13]: Keep workers on the job longer without being injured, blah blah blah, That's really where the rubber hits the road and I really earn my pay, if you will.

Jeff [0:16:23]: As a trusted advisor in the insurance based my idea.

Callan [0:16:27]: I don't disagree with that.

Callan [0:16:29]: I think that in most of the brokers that we've had on the show, which primarily is what we have on the show.

Callan [0:16:34]: Talk about that quite a bit.

Callan [0:16:36]: How can we get away from being transactional and I hate even use the word.

Callan [0:16:42]: Because nobody wants to be transactional.

Callan [0:16:44]: Even, you know, we had Jeff Snyder president of Automatic insurance on here, which most people would think, they've got a couple hundred people in an inside sales channel.

Callan [0:16:52]: But if you listen to the episode, the whole thing that they're talking about is are they wanna use technology, to benchmark, to better, put somebody in the cut.

Callan [0:16:59]: That's gonna look considerably different considering that's personal lines, home insurance trying to get the auto versus, they've, somebody that's in middle market or in is following a niche.

Callan [0:17:07]: But what I think is interesting and you kinda hit on this that I think that Xi is done, and I was waiting to see who would go first?

Callan [0:17:15]: I always thought.

Callan [0:17:16]: Now, obviously, I didn't inside view on it.

Callan [0:17:18]: So I guess I'm little biased in what I'm gonna say is somebody needed to build the interface.

Callan [0:17:22]: Everybody had the opportunity to do it.

Callan [0:17:24]: Vi has the opportunity to do it apply as the opportunity to do it, and that interface can come in one of two ways.

Callan [0:17:30]: What we're hearing is, say agencies, the the most innovative agencies that we talk to.

Callan [0:17:36]: I mean a lot of these aren't even...

Callan [0:17:38]: They're on the podcast.

Callan [0:17:39]: A lot of men are going on behind the scenes is they want that to be able to interact with the main interfaces it that they're using, Chat, claude, Gem whatever that might be.

Callan [0:17:50]: And have all that information pull into it.

Callan [0:17:52]: Whether that's appetite data, if that's actual quoting, its ability to bind, To your point, the expectation is going to be that that's going to happen.

Callan [0:18:03]: And I actually think that the carriers that don't play ball and that are gonna be in a lot of trouble.

Callan [0:18:06]: That's a big statement because it...

Callan [0:18:09]: It's moving an aircraft carrier, but tell me a little bit about why...

Callan [0:18:13]: Z wave could have made this just as an interface, but you build an Mc layer to be able to use AI wave tools with Claude Chat whatever that may be.

Callan [0:18:22]: Tell me about what went into that decision.

Callan [0:18:24]: Why do that?

Callan [0:18:25]: Because you do lose control.

Jeff [0:18:27]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:18:27]: So foremost, let's start with a premise that our reason for being when it comes to insurance agents and brokers is to help those organizations, those people sell more coverage.

Jeff [0:18:42]: And I will tell you that that works perfectly well with where I sit here today, which is I would like to make the world a better safer place personally, art into this notion of how do we advance that step.

Jeff [0:18:52]: And I think there are the gap between economic loss and insured loss is way too great, both on an individual layer on a company perspective, there's a lot more that society can do to improve this.

Jeff [0:19:06]: Okay.

Jeff [0:19:07]: That's that's my thirty thousand foot view of the world.

Callan [0:19:11]: Which just to just so I could pull back real quick.

Callan [0:19:13]: What you had said earlier, You know, the may have a five million dollar limit, pays five million real economic losses is eight million we're out three million that could actually shut a business down potentially.

Jeff [0:19:22]: That's right.

Jeff [0:19:23]: So now let's talk about.

Jeff [0:19:25]: So if you accept it, what we're trying to do is help our clients, help their clients.

Jeff [0:19:31]: We are somewhat agnostic with regard to your AI platform.

Jeff [0:19:35]: Zywave is a club shop.

Jeff [0:19:37]: Every employee has access to Claude.

Jeff [0:19:40]: It's amazing.

Jeff [0:19:40]: Having said that, we recognize that different organizations do it this way.

Jeff [0:19:44]: And so our stuff is...

Jeff [0:19:46]: I think conceptualize much more as a module that fits into your organizational footprint your pattern.

Jeff [0:19:53]: And I will also tell you that there's a hefty reliance on the notion of context at Zywave.

Jeff [0:20:02]: We talked about benchmarking, you know, rather than just advising about your private company o program, let's put in a context of other similar companies private o programs.

Jeff [0:20:13]: And we're doing the same thing with all of our data We've only been talking about benchmarking and loss data, but let's look at things like Osha violations.

Jeff [0:20:21]: So let's look at construction permits.

Jeff [0:20:23]: So let's look at vehicle fatalities on and on and on just needs to a coastline or a firehouse.

Jeff [0:20:28]: Like all of these data points reside within the the Z wave ecosystem in various formats.

Jeff [0:20:34]: So for me, what we're first doing is we're we're sort of leveraging AI infused with insurance data, not just Internet stuff.

Jeff [0:20:45]: I'm...

Jeff [0:20:45]: Wait, look.

Jeff [0:20:46]: We all have the experience of asking Chad Gp some question in being like, like, of course.

Jeff [0:20:52]: That's not even close.

Callan [0:20:54]: Why I heard that.

Callan [0:20:55]: I can't remember what the exact term was, but it's talking about.

Callan [0:20:58]: The segment of people that will take what that is and knock cross reference?

Jeff [0:21:03]: Listen, I think personally, I have.

Jeff [0:21:05]: I hope human society.

Jeff [0:21:07]: Does not go down this trend of just accepting things as is.

Jeff [0:21:10]: Right.

Jeff [0:21:10]: The differentiator has to be the human interpretation.

Jeff [0:21:14]: The human in the loop.

Jeff [0:21:15]: Right?

Jeff [0:21:16]: So for us, you have to take that brokerage, that carrier that Mg, that program manager, whatever might be, like, there is proprietary data that that organization has, you have to compare that in a context with a much larger dataset.

Jeff [0:21:30]: In whatever dimension you're talking about.

Jeff [0:21:33]: And for me, AI infused insurance data, AI infused insurance content.

Jeff [0:21:40]: You know, what are the coverage gaps?

Jeff [0:21:42]: What are the most likely exposure liability blah blah blah that an some sort of distribution transportation shipping, whatever business might have?

Jeff [0:21:53]: You have to sort of be looking at that.

Jeff [0:21:55]: So can the AI platform start there?

Jeff [0:21:57]: I will also tell you that one of the things that we've set out to do and I think this may be the most significant in my mind is to differentiate between efficiency and productivity.

Jeff [0:22:09]: Efficiency is just plowing through re of work, that you have to do in a more efficient fashion.

Jeff [0:22:18]: Productivity is where you can see measurable gains as a result of your approach.

Jeff [0:22:25]: So sure, I can save three hours by assembling this powerpoint response to some Rfp, I can get a list of prospects that match this faster whatever you, but that's efficiency.

Jeff [0:22:38]: Productivity is, you know, normally when I do this, I get three meetings.

Jeff [0:22:44]: But now I'm getting nine meetings, that's different.

Jeff [0:22:48]: That's a productivity gain in my mind.

Jeff [0:22:51]: And so when we build to our producer agent, a module, it fits into your workflow.

Jeff [0:22:59]: We wanted to be able to demonstrate an output a result an ROI that was a productivity enhancement, not just an efficiency enhancement.

Jeff [0:23:08]: And when we built our adviser agent, to look at your upcoming renewal and suggest coverage gaps?

Jeff [0:23:15]: Once again, we did this with a an eye on productivity and organic growth and where would it come from?

Jeff [0:23:23]: Could we make valuable suggestions?

Jeff [0:23:25]: In this input layer so that you could have a more engaging, more constructive of conversation with your insured, you know, one of my favorite people here in Columbus.

Jeff [0:23:38]: Besides you, of course.

Jeff [0:23:39]: It's Dean Elder and of She Global.

Jeff [0:23:42]: And I remember exactly where I was when he shared with me his view that a producer job is to get policy holder or the prospect to say yes or perhaps no.

Jeff [0:23:56]: That's when you boil it all down.

Jeff [0:23:58]: And so you think about all these service providers in this space and all of the stuff where or teaching and promoting and all the lunch and lives and all these things.

Jeff [0:24:10]: Like...

Jeff [0:24:10]: And Dean's comment to me, I received it on the you know, to question like this idea of like, do we have to make sure the producer is completely fluent in all facets of everything that Z wave does?

Jeff [0:24:23]: Or can we somehow deliver it to this notion of no touch organic growth.

Jeff [0:24:29]: Right?

Jeff [0:24:29]: Like, can you get it to a point where just give me the information that I need, so that I can have this interaction with my client prospect.

Jeff [0:24:36]: That's where we're going.

Jeff [0:24:38]: That's what we're trying to do.

Jeff [0:24:40]: And so our approach has been to develop Mc p's along the way with our producer agent and our advisory agent, and there'll be a whole series of other things that a brokerage can say, this is the part where we are having the biggest challenge.

Jeff [0:24:54]: This is the part of the workflow, the the stream, the insurance life cycle where we have this series collection of talent and the talent needs to do this before they do that?

Jeff [0:25:05]: What's the right module?

Jeff [0:25:07]: What's the right AI agent.

Jeff [0:25:09]: It would get us from this step to that step.

Jeff [0:25:13]: What of the things

Callan [0:25:15]: if I'm playing some of that back, that I think it's interesting.

Callan [0:25:18]: And so just in case anybody's not familiar with Mc p is.

Callan [0:25:22]: It's essentially which connects one set of tools to, it's how AI communicate, you can look at similar to an Api but there.

Jeff [0:25:30]: I think the easiest way to explain it to your audience may be that it is it's an Api.

Jeff [0:25:35]: Yep.

Jeff [0:25:35]: Working with AI on both sides.

Callan [0:25:39]: So agents can talk to each other and that agent could be.

Callan [0:25:42]: Z wave talking to claude I would...

Callan [0:25:44]: Or whatever that might be.

Callan [0:25:45]: So one of the things I think is interesting is, you know, we talked about benchmarking in loss and how can we close the gap between the claim amount and the true economic loss?

Callan [0:25:55]: That is going to make a lot of agencies considerably better trusted advisers.

Callan [0:26:01]: And that's just one.

Callan [0:26:02]: We're looking at one piece to the overall puzzle.

Callan [0:26:04]: You knew it hit on that.

Callan [0:26:05]: So you gotta do that.

Callan [0:26:06]: Gotta build good relationships.

Callan [0:26:08]: You gotta know other things about their business that might have have to do with insurance, whether you can make connections or whatever that might be.

Callan [0:26:15]: There's a whole whole, facet to this.

Callan [0:26:18]: That information is going to get better.

Callan [0:26:21]: The tools like you said are going to be able to analyze all of that.

Callan [0:26:27]: And give you better information to give your client.

Callan [0:26:29]: When all of that's in place, and everybody has access to all this, how does the agent differentiate from the person down the street?

Jeff [0:26:40]: You may have a far greater view of the typical salesperson than I have.

Jeff [0:26:49]: I want to put the transactional salesperson in any industry somewhat out of business.

Jeff [0:27:00]: It doesn't help.

Jeff [0:27:02]: Right.

Jeff [0:27:02]: And I think Transactional minded salespeople in any industry are all about.

Jeff [0:27:08]: This is how I benefit.

Jeff [0:27:09]: I have to get you to do something, so I benefit.

Jeff [0:27:12]: And that's completely opposite my view of what insurance needs to do.

Jeff [0:27:18]: For the landscape.

Jeff [0:27:19]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:27:19]: I have to do something so you benefit, or I have to do something so that you don't lose in the process.

Jeff [0:27:26]: This is all about protection and promises.

Jeff [0:27:29]: This is all about preventing disaster and calamity.

Jeff [0:27:33]: And that requires a savvy brain to approach the potential of adverse effect with solutions that could mitigate that disaster.

Jeff [0:27:47]: That I don't believe can be relegated to a computer.

Jeff [0:27:51]: I believe a computer can assemble likelihood and probabilities and all sorts of possible outcomes.

Jeff [0:28:00]: But the fact of the matter is a business owner, a CEO , managing director.

Jeff [0:28:06]: These individuals live and die by the success of their business.

Jeff [0:28:11]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:28:11]: They know it.

Jeff [0:28:12]: And they're always looking for those scrappy little, what are the extra things that I could do to improve.

Jeff [0:28:18]: And I was no different as a business, you know, where where a thousand people globally, we are we are hardwired to think about how do we always make our products our offerings better for our clients because that makes us better.

Jeff [0:28:35]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:28:36]: We're thinking about it all the time.

Jeff [0:28:37]: We're engaged.

Jeff [0:28:38]: And then I love the fact that my colleagues are...

Jeff [0:28:41]: You can reach somebody, you know, off hours were, like, hey I an idea.

Jeff [0:28:44]: Let's talk about it.

Jeff [0:28:45]: Suddenly, my wife is like, who are you talking to?

Jeff [0:28:47]: And why are you in no.

Jeff [0:28:49]: We're we're having a very passionate discussion about debts...

Jeff [0:28:52]: And I submit that all business owners operate that way.

Jeff [0:28:56]: As a principal in a business as a member of our senior leadership team, I want to make sure that we are advocating on behalf of that end policy holder.

Jeff [0:29:08]: And in order to do that, you're going to have to switch on your brain.

Jeff [0:29:13]: You're gonna have to take all of these inputs.

Jeff [0:29:15]: The inputs themselves don't differentiate you.

Jeff [0:29:18]: Maybe that's to maybe that's sort of the point that you're getting at with your question.

Jeff [0:29:21]: Right?

Jeff [0:29:21]: Like, it's this idea that having access to the information in and of itself is not the differentiator, what you do with it, how you interpret it, how you leverage it.

Jeff [0:29:30]: For example, if I'm going to be god's gift to to the dog kennel business.

Jeff [0:29:36]: Sure.

Jeff [0:29:36]: What have you

Callan [0:29:38]: say Sure.

Jeff [0:29:38]: Pick your lane.

Jeff [0:29:39]: Stick to your I I know.

Jeff [0:29:41]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:29:41]: I need to be fluent in all facets of the dog kennel business.

Jeff [0:29:44]: Such that when my producer, agent AI application lines up all these meetings for me.

Jeff [0:29:52]: I'm actually delivering value.

Jeff [0:29:54]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:29:55]: Not just reading off of a screen and saying, other dog kennel list owners like you.

Jeff [0:30:00]: All do this, you should do it too.

Jeff [0:30:03]: Like, that's not what you know what Mean?

Jeff [0:30:04]: I...

Jeff [0:30:04]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:30:05]: I have to really understand your business.

Jeff [0:30:06]: And so the differentiator for me become how you internalize all of that information and leverage it to improve your customer's business.

Callan [0:30:18]: I think what I'm hearing you saying, it is one When we look at all of the...

Callan [0:30:22]: Everybody can have access to this data.

Callan [0:30:25]: That's gonna be much easier to get.

Callan [0:30:26]: How you used data is gonna differentiate an agency from one point.

Jeff [0:30:30]: You're seeing it now and people, you know, people are...

Jeff [0:30:32]: People are coming the one of my favorite, what's the prompt you use to get that?

Jeff [0:30:36]: Sure.

Jeff [0:30:37]: That you of itself is a very telling example of we're not all leveraging the same playbook.

Callan [0:30:43]: Yeah.

Callan [0:30:43]: But what I think I'm hearing you say at maybe a little bit broader scale is...

Callan [0:30:48]: Okay.

Callan [0:30:49]: Let's say that the AI tools get good enough.

Callan [0:30:52]: To make that interpretation.

Callan [0:30:55]: And they can pull that.

Callan [0:30:56]: They can look at all these datasets, and they can pull together a very accurate depiction that then can be given to the client.

Callan [0:31:03]: Now, and what I think what I'm hearing you say on this is is like, You know, sure.

Callan [0:31:07]: Let's say it gets to that point.

Callan [0:31:09]: But the best agencies, and I...

Callan [0:31:12]: And it's funny.

Callan [0:31:13]: You mentioned about the different viewpoints.

Callan [0:31:14]: When I think about this, I think about...

Callan [0:31:16]: John I'm just talking about those elite agencies.

Callan [0:31:19]: And it's a good...

Callan [0:31:19]: It's...

Callan [0:31:20]: I'm glad you said that.

Callan [0:31:21]: I didn't think about that.

Callan [0:31:22]: And I'm like, I'm only thinking of the top.

Callan [0:31:24]: And that's kind the the goal of this show is how do we take with the top or doing.

Callan [0:31:28]: And for those people that want it, and I should say the top top doesn't mean the biggest.

Callan [0:31:31]: Top means the person that's doing exactly what you just described, and Feel like I'm hearing this as the differentiator is There's going to be that subset that is always going to be staying on top of what's going on.

Callan [0:31:44]: They're always looking for that additional thing that advantage that they can do by staying on top of this, learning something idea with peers and mentors and whatever that might be?

Callan [0:31:56]: As a result, that is how they're going to stay ahead.

Callan [0:31:59]: Am Hearing that correctly?

Jeff [0:32:01]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:32:01]: And I'm also going to double click on this reference to the big houses that have access to all of these resources.

Jeff [0:32:08]: Just keep in mind that the world is changing really quickly now.

Jeff [0:32:12]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:32:12]: The ability to plan years down the road is getting harder because of the way technology is changing.

Jeff [0:32:20]: It's not just technology.

Jeff [0:32:22]: It's also consumer expectations, you know, Amazon has made it so that, you know, I don't go to a a Cvs or a duane Reed to buy toothpaste deodorant and I go to Amazon and I wanna know when it's going to be placed on my apartment door by my door.

Jeff [0:32:37]: Like, come on.

Jeff [0:32:38]: Like, I should be getting updates all the time.

Jeff [0:32:41]: Like, as an insurance consumer, the business is adjusting in exactly the same way.

Jeff [0:32:47]: How I want updates.

Jeff [0:32:49]: I want to know.

Jeff [0:32:50]: I want...

Jeff [0:32:51]: I want this piece of information.

Jeff [0:32:52]: I wanna know how this layers with that.

Jeff [0:32:54]: All of those what I'll call distribution angles are also changing.

Jeff [0:32:58]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:32:59]: And the giant investment in infrastructure may turn out to be slightly skew to where an organization, a brokerage selling organization needs to be today.

Callan [0:33:14]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:33:15]: And I think where where forging down is a path where we still won't have enough people to do all the things that needs to be done.

Jeff [0:33:23]: In the insurance space.

Jeff [0:33:25]: There are too many people who are on the cusp of retiring or stepping out.

Callan [0:33:29]: Sure.

Jeff [0:33:30]: As I think, you know, you and I love to talk about, you know, once you're in this industry.

Jeff [0:33:33]: You don't really leak.

Jeff [0:33:34]: You can't.

Jeff [0:33:35]: I've tried it.

Jeff [0:33:36]: I've tried it.

Callan [0:33:36]: I I can't do it.

Jeff [0:33:37]: So there's this the aspect of I'm gonna call it relationship that's established between all the various marketplace participants in this ecosystem.

Jeff [0:33:45]: AI and data and content and tools should make people more capable, but the the complexity of risk.

Jeff [0:33:57]: The nature of how fast things are changing.

Jeff [0:34:00]: Autonomous vehicles will change a whole bunch of things.

Jeff [0:34:04]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:34:04]: Data centers, power consumption and climate change and, you.

Jeff [0:34:11]: So we are conductive storms and, you know, all of these things.

Jeff [0:34:14]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:34:15]: It's harder to navigate these direct and indirect exposures, I think.

Callan [0:34:23]: You know, you you you hit on this a little bit earlier.

Callan [0:34:25]: And I'm curious to carry this a little.

Callan [0:34:27]: And you probably just answered it.

Callan [0:34:30]: What's not going to change?

Jeff [0:34:32]: That's good question.

Jeff [0:34:33]: I I think that elements of relationship, elements of connection.

Jeff [0:34:38]: John Gamboli who runs distribution for Ali North America is one of my favorite people as well, and he shared with me over Sushi a year or two ago.

Jeff [0:34:48]: His notion of how he decides which people in the industry matter.

Jeff [0:34:52]: And I've completely adopted this as a town.

Jeff [0:34:56]: Yes.

Jeff [0:34:57]: This notion, you know, I'm a super addict on Linkedin.

Jeff [0:35:00]: I no longer accept connection invitations from Rand.

Jeff [0:35:04]: People that I don't know.

Jeff [0:35:05]: And I certainly don't connect with people who, I have no mutual connections with.

Jeff [0:35:10]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:35:10]: I don't understand what the benefit is to me, doing that.

Jeff [0:35:13]: And John shared with me his view of that mutual connections establish the credibility of your relationships.

Jeff [0:35:21]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:35:21]: On the basis of, you know, if you and I go to Linkedin and we check to see how many people do we know in common, and the answer is, you know, I don't know.

Jeff [0:35:30]: A doesn't.

Jeff [0:35:30]: Then the people that you know are not the people that I know.

Jeff [0:35:33]: Right.

Jeff [0:35:34]: By definition.

Jeff [0:35:35]: But if we go to Linkedin, we check mutual connections, and there are hundreds.

Jeff [0:35:39]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:35:40]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:35:40]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:35:40]: Well, if we make the assumption that the people that either one of us knows are the right people.

Jeff [0:35:45]: Then now suddenly, you know all the right people as well.

Jeff [0:35:48]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:35:49]: And in the insurance business relationships absolutely matter.

Jeff [0:35:54]: Because when the proverbial, whatever hits the fan, you need to call that help desk.

Jeff [0:36:00]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:00]: And that could be a claims officer that could be an attorney, whatever back could be a broker, of course.

Jeff [0:36:06]: Like, you you can't do this alone.

Jeff [0:36:09]: And you have to be a hundred percent but that individual has your back when you need it.

Jeff [0:36:16]: That's the whole notion of what Dave Was at Brown and Brown calls.

Jeff [0:36:20]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:20]: Very expensive PDFs.

Jeff [0:36:22]: Very.

Jeff [0:36:22]: Like, you know, what's behind it?

Jeff [0:36:24]: It's a promise.

Jeff [0:36:25]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:26]: It's a promise.

Jeff [0:36:27]: It's a promise that I will be there.

Jeff [0:36:29]: I got this for you.

Jeff [0:36:30]: Type of thing.

Jeff [0:36:31]: And that, I think element of insurance will never change.

Jeff [0:36:35]: I don't think the relationship element of insurance will change.

Jeff [0:36:39]: I think all the other...

Jeff [0:36:40]: I don't know, infrastructure, but it's not the right word.

Jeff [0:36:44]: You know, all the other supporting elements will shift.

Callan [0:36:48]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:49]: And faster than they are shifting now.

Jeff [0:36:51]: And part of that is because the the nature of risk, mother nature and all the other elements out there, the changing consumer appetite and the way this stuff gets distributed.

Jeff [0:37:04]: You know, the fact of the matter is, there's a lot of data about Jeff Cohen that can be discern and somebody could review that data and say, gee, it looks like you always fall into this trap.

Jeff [0:37:14]: When you do this, what if we could help you avoid that trap.

Jeff [0:37:17]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:37:18]: Bring it on.

Jeff [0:37:19]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:37:19]: Bring it on.

Jeff [0:37:20]: I'm ready.

Callan [0:37:21]: Eating sour candy from the wrong infection.

Callan [0:37:24]: It comes full circle.

Callan [0:37:27]: I tend to agree with that.

Callan [0:37:29]: And I think those relationships are already becoming more.

Callan [0:37:32]: But I'm...

Callan [0:37:32]: I'm already seeing that quite a bit.

Callan [0:37:34]: And, you know, you're seeing conferences, small group dinner, small that you guys do a great job of this.

Callan [0:37:40]: The the small events, the regional events, I think those things are gonna become exponentially more important.

Callan [0:37:46]: In whatever you're doing, in which, you know, having a niche will help with that, and I'm not necessarily on the train, like, you have to have a niche or not.

Callan [0:37:54]: Although, I think if you have a niche it's becoming easier to grow.

Callan [0:37:59]: I it always kinda was, and I'm...

Callan [0:38:01]: And I am a niche believer my own business, but but we've had examples of great generalist on the on the show.

Callan [0:38:07]: They're doing a great job and not having a niche, but If you have a niche, you're at such an advantage right now, I think.

Jeff [0:38:14]: I do too...

Jeff [0:38:14]: We're gonna host this digital distribution conference in New York can early September, and Tom Gillingham, president of Commercial Risk at NFP is doing a keynote.

Jeff [0:38:23]: And and one of his angles, of course is that, you know, kick your lane and own that lane.

Jeff [0:38:29]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:38:29]: And and, you know, I'll go back to my, you know, dog kennel analogy.

Jeff [0:38:33]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:38:34]: Right.

Jeff [0:38:34]: Like, I think there is vast dreams of experience that come from that solitary swim lane.

Jeff [0:38:43]: Can I say this on your show, the you and your wife are expecting congratulations to?

Jeff [0:38:47]: Yeah Yeah.

Jeff [0:38:48]: Absolutely.

Jeff [0:38:48]: In New York city, my wife is an observation.

Jeff [0:38:51]: And, yeah, she delivers...

Jeff [0:38:53]: She and her partners deliver hundreds of babies every year.

Jeff [0:38:56]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:38:56]: I wouldn't want her to fly my plane to Columbus, Ohio.

Jeff [0:39:00]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:39:00]: That's not in her lane.

Jeff [0:39:02]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:39:02]: And by the same token, I don't think you want my pilot this morning.

Jeff [0:39:06]: Doing your delivery.

Jeff [0:39:09]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:39:10]: Right.

Jeff [0:39:10]: Like, once again, and perhaps that analogy is extreme.

Callan [0:39:14]: But, there's my...

Callan [0:39:15]: There's a small set of pilots that are also Obese.

Callan [0:39:18]: So yeah So that actually totally that

Jeff [0:39:22]: crazy venn diagram at single data points.

Callan [0:39:24]: What are the...

Callan [0:39:25]: Weirdest thing.

Jeff [0:39:26]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:39:26]: You know, is there a doctor on the plane?

Jeff [0:39:28]: Anyway, the, oh, here I am.

Jeff [0:39:30]: The but the...

Jeff [0:39:34]: This idea of where we talked about that transactional salesperson person in any industry.

Jeff [0:39:41]: This is really...

Jeff [0:39:41]: I I need to I need to make a sale because it benefits may.

Jeff [0:39:45]: I think the specialist, if you will or the person who concentrates on dog kennel or whatever it is.

Jeff [0:39:52]: Yep.

Jeff [0:39:52]: Is now compounding their own interpretation of events with a tremendous array of proprietary experience, it might not be expressed in a spreadsheet, but it expressed in lots of conversations, lots of late night phone calls, lots of proactive wow.

Jeff [0:40:09]: If everybody is doing this, how come you're not.

Jeff [0:40:12]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:40:13]: And nobody is doing this.

Jeff [0:40:15]: Why are you?

Jeff [0:40:16]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:40:17]: Aspects to the trade, and and I applaud that pursuit.

Callan [0:40:21]: I totally agree.

Callan [0:40:21]: I think there are tremendous advantages to it.

Callan [0:40:23]: And it's not that that's any a new concept, I just think it's becoming a little bit more magnified right now, and I agree with that.

Callan [0:40:29]: Part we're already here at James, last question I have for you.

Callan [0:40:32]: On this flu by is if you could have a conversation with your younger self.

Callan [0:40:37]: What would that conversation be?

Callan [0:40:39]: What advice would you give them?

Jeff [0:40:41]: I'm sixty one.

Jeff [0:40:42]: I love my current role.

Jeff [0:40:44]: I love to get out of my work from home environment and travel home, see clients, meet people in in their setting.

Jeff [0:40:52]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:40:53]: At a conference.

Jeff [0:40:54]: Perhaps it's an event that we're hosting.

Jeff [0:40:56]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:40:56]: Whatever it is.

Jeff [0:40:57]: And I think if I could go back, I took my first role before the internet when posted notes were the means by which, you know, you told the colleague, you know, hey, this person called for you.

Callan [0:41:10]: You should.

Callan [0:41:10]: Yeah Yeah.

Callan [0:41:10]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:12]: I think I would.

Jeff [0:41:12]: Over emphasize gas pedal.

Jeff [0:41:15]: The idea of building connections.

Jeff [0:41:18]: It took me a little while before I figured out that every introduction every Linkedin connection.

Jeff [0:41:25]: Every interaction is actually a thing that has to be tracked c thought about.

Jeff [0:41:33]: I'm very into the what I call it, heads Zywave of the un unstructured reach outs.

Jeff [0:41:39]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:41:40]: In this environment with lots of teams calls and virtual things, you know, a thirty minute call is a call to establish this and a much people get on blah blah.

Jeff [0:41:50]: Okay.

Jeff [0:41:51]: Good.

Jeff [0:41:51]: See you later.

Jeff [0:41:52]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:53]: You know, where is the a connection?

Jeff [0:41:56]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:56]: And it for me, I'm notorious for just reaching out to colleagues they're saying, hey.

Jeff [0:42:02]: What's going on with this?

Jeff [0:42:04]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:42:04]: How are you doing over there?

Jeff [0:42:05]: And did I hear right?

Jeff [0:42:07]: Did you guys just buy a house?

Jeff [0:42:08]: That's amazing.

Jeff [0:42:09]: How did you decide this sort sign that?

Jeff [0:42:12]: The un schedule reach out for me is a fantastic means to build a connection.

Jeff [0:42:18]: And I would have been on this crusade a lot earlier.

Jeff [0:42:21]: The second time we're around.

Jeff [0:42:23]: I yeah.

Jeff [0:42:23]: So gig.

Jeff [0:42:24]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:42:25]: I also think that, related to this is this idea of if you make your clients better.

Jeff [0:42:32]: You will make yourself better in the process.

Callan [0:42:36]: Mhm.

Jeff [0:42:37]: And it took me a little while to figure that one out too.

Jeff [0:42:39]: Initially, it's, you know, this is the goal.

Jeff [0:42:41]: I have to...

Jeff [0:42:42]: I have to cross this line.

Jeff [0:42:43]: I have to I have to hit this bar.

Jeff [0:42:45]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:42:46]: If you turn it on its head and you say, well, you know what I just have to make my client as good as my client can be.

Jeff [0:42:53]: Your client will reward you with more.

Jeff [0:42:56]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:42:56]: And it will come back to you in the form of, let me ask you a question.

Jeff [0:42:59]: Hey, are you available?

Jeff [0:43:01]: I just wanna run this thought by you.

Jeff [0:43:02]: What do you think about this?

Jeff [0:43:04]: Suppose we're gonna build another factory over there.

Jeff [0:43:06]: What would you tell us to do?

Jeff [0:43:08]: And when they start doing that?

Jeff [0:43:09]: Now it's all clicking.

Jeff [0:43:11]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:43:11]: And I I would have preferred.

Jeff [0:43:14]: To realize that a little earlier.

Jeff [0:43:16]: In my sixty one years of being on the planet.

Jeff [0:43:19]: Having said that, I go through life right now thinking about not only how I make connections, but how I I just stay incrementally stickier.

Jeff [0:43:28]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:43:29]: And that person's brain, whether it's my crazy love for orange things or whatever it might be.

Jeff [0:43:33]: Like, just what are the things that human interaction is is memorable for just an extra micro second.

Jeff [0:43:39]: Well, it's almost that you can't do that

Callan [0:43:42]: if you're not being authentic to who you actually are.

Callan [0:43:45]: Because you can't keep that up for everybody.

Callan [0:43:46]: You can't put on a different mass for every single different person and expect for you to stand out any way, shape or form.

Callan [0:43:53]: And so

Jeff [0:43:55]: you're harp on this element of consistency, Mhm.

Jeff [0:43:57]: Which is all...

Jeff [0:43:58]: I haven't really thought long enough about this, but the concept of connections requires a certain amount of consistency.

Jeff [0:44:04]: And I think it dovetail details nicely with this whole insurance idea.

Jeff [0:44:07]: Right?

Jeff [0:44:07]: Like, I don't know when I'm going to need you, But when I do, I have to be able to call you.

Jeff [0:44:11]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:44:12]: You know, you've done this this podcast, hundreds of times.

Jeff [0:44:16]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:44:16]: How that is a mark of consistency.

Jeff [0:44:18]: Your audience depends on you to do it.

Jeff [0:44:21]: This point.

Jeff [0:44:21]: It's part of their behavior.

Jeff [0:44:22]: I go here.

Jeff [0:44:23]: I click on this.

Jeff [0:44:24]: I sit back, and I listen the calendar.

Jeff [0:44:26]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:44:27]: Like, that consistency is part of this implicit but un understated bond.

Jeff [0:44:32]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:44:33]: That you have with your counterpart parties.

Jeff [0:44:35]: It's crucial.

Jeff [0:44:36]: It's necessary.

Jeff [0:44:37]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:44:38]: And I think that that is another element of connection between humans such that in the back of that recipients want, can Count on this person.

Jeff [0:44:48]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:44:49]: And I think that without, you know, nobody's going to a ledger and checking a box and Callan gets to tick.

Callan [0:44:57]: He was a little consistent here.

Jeff [0:44:59]: But It's noticed.

Jeff [0:45:00]: That so when you operate this way.

Jeff [0:45:01]: When you behave certain way, I think your colleagues, your friends, your family and your counterpart parties all recognize it without saying.

Jeff [0:45:11]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:45:11]: Be very consistent.

Callan [0:45:13]: I can't think of a better place to wrap it up.

Callan [0:45:15]: This was so much fun this Flu bye.

Callan [0:45:17]: Thanks for coming in to the studio.

Callan [0:45:18]: I really enjoyed this.

Jeff [0:45:20]: So did I.

Jeff [0:45:21]: Thanks for having you on the program.

Jeff [0:45:22]: Bye.