How Travis Hedge Built an AI-Enabled Brokerage at Vouch Insurance

Travis [0:00:00]: But it's truly about how do you enable both the client and the broker to do their best work to not get caught up in the min inertia of gathering the right data for the submission and funneling Pdfs back and forth between under writers and and clients over email, but instead really focus on the expertise and the relationships that drive that trust, both with clients and with carriers on the other side of the marketplace.

Callan [0:00:25]: Welcome to The Insurance Growth Lab, who we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance industry.

Callan [0:00:32]: Callan Harrington founder Flashgrowth and in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers, sure tech and top brokers to break down one specific is, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale a channel or solve a specific growth challenge.

Callan [0:00:50]: It's no fluff, just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:54]: Travis one, excited to have you back.

Callan [0:01:01]: Two, where I wanted to start this one off is.

Callan [0:01:04]: Tell us about Urban Legends.

Travis [0:01:06]: Yeah.

Travis [0:01:06]: Well, great to be here.

Travis [0:01:08]: We've we've both grown a lot.

Travis [0:01:09]: You got this sweet new studio.

Travis [0:01:10]: Urban Legends.

Travis [0:01:11]: So I was fortunate to start my career at Nationwide insurance, and there was this urban legend when I was there.

Travis [0:01:17]: Who knows how true it is, but I like it.

Travis [0:01:19]: That there was one, a board deck in the late nineties that called the Internet of fad.

Travis [0:01:23]: And as a result, they were little slower to invest in in direct distribution there and a story for another day, But between that, and the second one, which was every year they'd run this survey that showed fifty percent of people year after year, still wanna work with a human agent.

Travis [0:01:36]: And when we started Vouch, I thought about those two things.

Travis [0:01:38]: I was like, well, we're selling to tech founders, like, certainly, we can move that number up.

Travis [0:01:42]: To this day, no matter how self serve we make the product, Even when someone just buying a two hundred dollar bot, about fifty percent of people wanna get on Zoom and talk to a human they can trust.

Callan [0:01:52]: It's wild.

Callan [0:01:52]: Even now, like, you know, and and for a while, it was actually, like, straight through processing that was preventing a of that.

Callan [0:01:58]: Yep.

Callan [0:01:59]: For just like carriers just in general.

Callan [0:02:00]: That's all there now, and that was still to this, like, add a theme.

Callan [0:02:04]: That was a huge theme at Tech insights, which I just got back from was Bull are still wanting to talk with an agent.

Callan [0:02:10]: Now I've been on this train, like, for years in that many times have we see the agent try to get a million times.

Callan [0:02:16]: So I think that's super interesting and and just not surprising.

Callan [0:02:20]: That's like, if there's an apocalypse the agents will survive.

Travis [0:02:24]: That's right.

Travis [0:02:24]: That's right.

Travis [0:02:24]: Isn't I won't call to cockroach because my dad's an agent.

Travis [0:02:28]: My brother like you.

Travis [0:02:29]: Oh, I grew up in this.

Travis [0:02:30]: Yeah.

Travis [0:02:30]: Say...

Travis [0:02:31]: They'll survive.

Callan [0:02:32]: I say that that's twinkies day.

Travis [0:02:33]: There you go.

Travis [0:02:33]: And, like,

Callan [0:02:34]: it's such a resilient, and they, now, I'm biased.

Callan [0:02:37]: Right?

Callan [0:02:37]: Similar.

Callan [0:02:37]: Like, I was an agent.

Callan [0:02:38]: And, of course, just given any of these episodes is very clear that I'm very pro agent broker.

Callan [0:02:44]: But still, it's like, it's...

Callan [0:02:46]: They would...

Callan [0:02:47]: Of any of the ones.

Callan [0:02:48]: I'd never heard probably because I'm too close to it, but I don't think I have ever heard.

Callan [0:02:52]: A single occupation that people have said is going to die more over the past ten years.

Travis [0:02:59]: Well, and look this is one of the many things that I'm happy to admit.

Travis [0:03:02]: I was wrong about ten years ago.

Travis [0:03:04]: Alright?

Travis [0:03:04]: Like, I remember being at these early insure tech dinners, I think we called them like insurance technology dinners at the time.

Travis [0:03:10]: Being the one talking about the full stack carrier and digital distribution, and and there's a role for that in the industry, but the longer I've been in this, the more I've grown to really appreciate the value of the trusted expert in this equation.

Travis [0:03:22]: Right?

Travis [0:03:23]: Like These are the most important moments in individuals and businesses lives when things go wrong.

Travis [0:03:29]: And at the end of the day, it's about trust.

Callan [0:03:32]: Hundred percent.

Callan [0:03:32]: And speaking of that, Like, I was pretty blown away by some of these stats.

Callan [0:03:36]: Seventy three N mps.

Callan [0:03:38]: And I think for typical and average agent brokers right around the thirties or something like that.

Callan [0:03:43]: It's incredible.

Callan [0:03:44]: I mean, you guys out have raised over two hundred million dollars.

Callan [0:03:47]: And you're an Ai enabled broker.

Callan [0:03:50]: I wanna dive to that last piece pretty heavily.

Callan [0:03:53]: The thing that prompted this was.

Callan [0:03:55]: Now, of course, we were talking about, like, okay.

Callan [0:03:57]: When's the right time to get you back on on the show and talk about some of these things.

Callan [0:04:00]: And then what I saw you posed about being an Ai enabled brokers.

Callan [0:04:03]: Was like, I, we gotta dive into this because I think a lot of people are talking about it.

Callan [0:04:09]: I don't see a lot of like, what.

Callan [0:04:11]: There's tools that are coming out and they're they're helping this.

Callan [0:04:14]: I love to dive in some of these actual examples to kick this off, I said digital broker to start.

Callan [0:04:19]: And you said, well, We're not a digital broker.

Callan [0:04:22]: What does that mean?

Travis [0:04:23]: Yeah.

Travis [0:04:23]: So let's start with kind of, like, the landscape as it exists.

Travis [0:04:26]: Right?

Travis [0:04:27]: And specifically, like, we serve businesses.

Travis [0:04:29]: Right?

Travis [0:04:29]: We started off serving just start, We've now expanded to serve a wide category of high growth complex businesses.

Travis [0:04:35]: And on the one hand, you have digital brokers out there, where if you need something fast, easy, typically cheap, you can go there, click a few buttons and get a policy and check the box.

Travis [0:04:46]: Right?

Travis [0:04:46]: We call, you know, that's the digital broker in the spectrum.

Travis [0:04:48]: On the other of the spectrum, you have the major legacy brokerage.

Travis [0:04:52]: Right?

Travis [0:04:52]: Big names that we all know.

Travis [0:04:54]: Sure.

Travis [0:04:54]: On that of the spectrum, you get deep expertise.

Travis [0:04:56]: Increasingly, there's technology enabling that experience, but it's still largely showing up with ten people to the meeting very email Pdf driven experience.

Travis [0:05:05]: You know, I leave names out of it, but like, when our general counsel goes to get our coverage every year, she's pulling her hair out, refill the same information in the multiple Pdfs every time.

Travis [0:05:13]: And unfortunately, for a lot of businesses, like, you're kinda stuck with picking between one of those two options.

Travis [0:05:18]: We talk about it as Ai enabled because it's about enabling the people that are part of the process.

Travis [0:05:23]: Now, can a company come in and self serve most of their needs through us?

Travis [0:05:27]: Yeah.

Travis [0:05:27]: Absolutely.

Travis [0:05:27]: But as we talked about a minute ago, they still wanna work with a human they can trust and know that it behind the scenes at the very least.

Travis [0:05:33]: You've got real experts that are crafting the right coverage.

Travis [0:05:36]: And so for us, the journey started a few years ago where it was all about, you know, we've been doing this for going on eight years now.

Travis [0:05:43]: We launched...

Travis [0:05:44]: We launched our first our first products at the end of twenty nineteen.

Travis [0:05:47]: And at the time it was all about how we get this as quick as possible.

Travis [0:05:50]: It looked more like that digital brokerage experience with human expertise, you know, kinda sprinkle on top.

Travis [0:05:55]: I can't sit here and say there were an Ai native company though.

Travis [0:05:58]: We didn't start two years ago.

Travis [0:05:59]: We started seven, eight years ago.

Travis [0:06:01]: And however, I think we have the benefit of all those years of, you know, thousands of placements and the the data and the clients that we've scaled with over the years that now put us in this really interesting position where we've got the technology, we've got the talent we have the clients that we've been able to really rapidly transform the business and become I think truly Ai enabled.

Travis [0:06:21]: Now.

Travis [0:06:21]: I still think we're really in the early innings into that, and we have a long way to go, but it's truly about how do you enable both the client and the broker to do their best work to not get caught up in the min inertia of gathering the right data for the submission and funneling Pdfs back and forth between under writers and and clients over email, but instead really focus on the expertise and the relationships that drive that trust both with clients and with carriers on the other side of the marketplace.

Travis [0:06:47]: And if we can free up more of their time to be great at those things, then, you know, that's how you create a really differentiated client experience, most importantly.

Travis [0:06:56]: And, yeah, we think eventually, a really differentiated business and and economics within that business.

Callan [0:07:01]: So agreed.

Callan [0:07:02]: A couple places I wanna dive in on a little bit deeper.

Callan [0:07:04]: Everything you just said, you know, if you could free up the mnuchin in order for an agent to truly be an adviser and to win all around.

Callan [0:07:11]: If you can get them to have those relationships huge win.

Callan [0:07:15]: Where did that start.

Callan [0:07:16]: Like, what is the like, if you can give, like, an example of, okay.

Callan [0:07:20]: We looked at this, here are the things that started to pile up that we said, okay, Ai can actually help here, and we've implemented this, and it does help.

Callan [0:07:28]: What are some of those examples?

Callan [0:07:29]: That help remove some of that?

Travis [0:07:32]: Yeah.

Travis [0:07:32]: So...

Travis [0:07:32]: And to be clear, internally, we talk about it as we have to operate as an Ai native company?

Callan [0:07:38]: What does that mean?

Travis [0:07:39]: Yeah.

Travis [0:07:39]: So it's...

Travis [0:07:39]: From how we build to how we operate day to day It is incumbent on every single person in the business to transform how they work.

Travis [0:07:48]: So we talk about it as every single role is becoming a manager of agents.

Travis [0:07:51]: And so actually that managerial skill set, I think is becoming important for every member of the organization regardless of, like, how senior you

Callan [0:07:59]: because they're at orchestrating their own Ai agents to do work on their behalf.

Travis [0:08:02]: That's absolutely right.

Travis [0:08:03]: And so I think like a lot of companies we started by just putting tools in the hands of people and letting them experiment and see what works and what doesn't.

Travis [0:08:09]: And I would say look, I'm sure you have this conversation with a lot of folks.

Travis [0:08:12]: Things have changed a lot in the last six months in particular account.

Travis [0:08:15]: Right?

Callan [0:08:15]: What's up four point six came out.

Callan [0:08:16]: I think have a lot of things.

Callan [0:08:18]: In c in particular.

Travis [0:08:20]: Yep.

Travis [0:08:20]: Exactly.

Travis [0:08:20]: So, you know, fortunately, I think our engineers were really leading the pack in terms of their adoption of called c and other coding tools that they're using and that helps sort of set the pace internally.

Travis [0:08:29]: But quite frankly, a lot of the best work I see comes from my my brokers, my producers, the brokerage ops folks in the back office by encouraging folks to really go build an experiment on the front lines, we've not created this really interesting culture where they're the ones out there really identifying the use cases the workflows, how it should work, and then our product team is really building the platform to them product size and scale at a cost company.

Travis [0:08:52]: So give you a couple examples initially, last year, this was mostly, like, custom Gp and stuff like that.

Travis [0:08:58]: We've since very much become more of an philanthropic shop and building a lot of own tooling.

Travis [0:09:01]: But a few months ago, we started a new what's called a Ai builder of the week award.

Travis [0:09:05]: It's pretty simple.

Travis [0:09:06]: Like, we have a a channel within Vouch called Ta where we encourage folks as you experiment and you build stuff that works for you.

Travis [0:09:12]: Are you just see interesting stuff out there in the world, share it here.

Travis [0:09:15]: And every week within our leadership team meeting, we look at the post from the week, see what we thought was the most impactful, what got the most reaction and buzz from colleagues.

Travis [0:09:23]: And then I have a a fun little Ai generated image where folks have, like, a hard hat and a hundred dollar bill in their pocket because we give everybody a hundred bucks when they win the Ai build the week award.

Travis [0:09:33]: The winners that word have ranged everywhere from sales managers to producers to someone straight out of college, funny if she went to a high states.

Travis [0:09:40]: I was very happy to see about that.

Travis [0:09:41]: Yeah that.

Travis [0:09:42]: To product managers as well.

Travis [0:09:44]: Right?

Travis [0:09:44]: And engineers.

Travis [0:09:45]: And what's exciting is as they develop their own workflows that work for them.

Travis [0:09:49]: People are connecting dots across the company.

Travis [0:09:51]: So, like, I saw one where one of my client managers jumped in there and said, hey.

Travis [0:09:56]: I'm I'm kinda of working through this right now.

Travis [0:09:58]: Can someone help me figure out how to do X y z.

Travis [0:10:00]: One of my producers who's a former startup founder himself jump and said, hey, I think you need to use Zapier to make these connections and, like, the people that are serving our clients day day are also building solutions and rethinking the roles in real time.

Travis [0:10:13]: And then the other thing we've done is...

Travis [0:10:16]: So we got together as a company at what we call Camp Vouch in Austin a few weeks ago.

Travis [0:10:20]: And the entire week was just a Hack for the entire business.

Travis [0:10:24]: So each team was responsible for building their own solution.

Travis [0:10:28]: So sales was doing their thing.

Travis [0:10:29]: Client manager was doing their thing, etcetera.

Travis [0:10:31]: But had ten different teams going and they each had some engineering support to help them out, but they were responsible for building those solutions themselves with cloud code and with c.

Travis [0:10:39]: And it was so exciting because in the background, we were actually also just launching what we call a new brokerage operating system.

Travis [0:10:46]: Which is the infrastructure that powers all this across the company.

Travis [0:10:49]: And it...

Travis [0:10:50]: Way it was important to go do that work because as we've transitioned from being primarily a carrier business to now exclusively a brokerage business,

Callan [0:10:57]: diesel sold the the we've

Travis [0:10:59]: talk more about that.

Travis [0:11:00]: We had to transform our our infrastructure and our client experience to really meet the moment.

Travis [0:11:04]: And so that foundation though gives us the data architecture and the underlying tooling to then go deploy a lot of this more rapidly across the business.

Travis [0:11:11]: Anyways, that's important context because it's the phase one of this journey, upon which we're then truly rethinking from first principles, what each of these workflows needs to look like.

Travis [0:11:20]: And so it was really cool for me to see our placements team and our client management team.

Travis [0:11:24]: Really every team come up with effectively with, hey, this is what we want our workflows to look like.

Travis [0:11:30]: And then two weeks later, we got our engineering team together actually here Columbus because half my best engineering managers are here and kicked off a truly Ai native hack on Sprint.

Travis [0:11:40]: Right?

Travis [0:11:41]: We've been in this journey to becoming increasingly Ai native and how we operate, but this was opportunity now that that core infrastructure is live to really rip the band aid to make that full transition to pure Ai native engineering practices.

Callan [0:11:54]: Okay.

Callan [0:11:54]: So let me just pull that just to make I got it real.

Callan [0:11:56]: What I'm here and I believe is that the first thing you need to do is create a foundation which

Travis [0:12:02]: you can actually build these workflows.

Travis [0:12:04]: If you don't have your data architecture setup to really do this right.

Travis [0:12:08]: You're just gonna be spinning mud.

Travis [0:12:10]: Yeah.

Callan [0:12:11]: Here's a question on that.

Callan [0:12:11]: Do you guys build your own Ams?

Travis [0:12:13]: No.

Travis [0:12:13]: Are you talk to?

Travis [0:12:15]: No.

Travis [0:12:15]: So we use a combination of Salesforce and an Api based Ams.

Travis [0:12:19]: To create the core infrastructure, and then we're effectively...

Travis [0:12:23]: That we just don't think that's where you build the actual differentiation in the business.

Callan [0:12:26]: Well I'm curious because I'm hearing a number of the large brokers, which it surprised me, this isn't an knock against large brokers it's just Yeah.

Callan [0:12:34]: It's typically an inorganic model.

Callan [0:12:35]: It'll could be wrong.

Callan [0:12:36]: They have a real challenge here in that.

Callan [0:12:38]: Every time they buy an agency one could be on applied.

Callan [0:12:41]: One could be on Vi four.

Callan [0:12:42]: One now search.

Callan [0:12:43]: It could be on anything.

Callan [0:12:44]: And I know a lot of them are run on applied in the top one hundred, but Regardless, I'm hearing that they are building their own and deploying it, which I thought was interesting.

Callan [0:12:54]: Okay.

Callan [0:12:55]: So why not build Ams.

Travis [0:12:58]: In large part because the core infrastructure is not where we see the differentiation happening.

Travis [0:13:03]: So we wanted to give our team kind of the right scaffolding to then go build the workflows, and, I think really critically start to get passively gather the data that drives the validated learnings that allow us to not just automate workflows but industrialized expertise.

Travis [0:13:20]: So this is a little bit more, and I wanna come back to your question about what does Ai native operating actually mean.

Travis [0:13:26]: But where we're going with this is look durable differentiation and value in a brokerage Sure.

Travis [0:13:32]: Everybody's gonna automate more.

Travis [0:13:34]: We're all gonna get more efficient.

Travis [0:13:35]: Everybody's gonna drive a little bit more.

Travis [0:13:36]: But back to our earlier conversation, what people really with clients and what our underwriting partners really need is trust.

Travis [0:13:42]: And that comes through an expertise, expertise that has historically been developed in this industry over many, many years of repetition and apprenticeship.

Travis [0:13:50]: Right?

Travis [0:13:51]: So, like, learning by osmosis and by doing, but it can take the typical model in a brokerage is for a producer to take three years to ramp.

Travis [0:13:58]: We're getting folks fully ramped in about a year and a half.

Travis [0:14:00]: Two things.

Travis [0:14:02]: Well, one, like, surrounding them with the right infrastructure, and I think just in general really trying to hire really high slope ambitious individuals, not that others don't, but like, that's our talent model, but it's...

Travis [0:14:11]: Let me give you an example.

Travis [0:14:12]: Let's say that there's new, like, litigation that drops.

Travis [0:14:15]: That impacts a lot large swath of the client base.

Travis [0:14:17]: Historically, you would say, hey, team, like, go read this and check it out, and maybe we turn that into some content over the course of several weeks or several months that starts to propagate and become part of the conversation.

Travis [0:14:27]: Just Now we can have it set up as such that in real time as they're preparing for that client meeting.

Travis [0:14:32]: It's not just showing up as like a tip in their environment, it's actually because we're automating the creation of those proposal decks to begin with.

Travis [0:14:40]: It's getting dropped into the slide in real time, minutes and hours after its after it's dropped.

Travis [0:14:45]: Okay?

Travis [0:14:45]: So you take information diffusion and take it from a relatively...

Travis [0:14:50]: I wish I had better analogy for this.

Travis [0:14:52]: But if you go back in times like the telegraph.

Travis [0:14:54]: Right, instead of going from one tower to the next.

Travis [0:14:57]: That information is now getting dis across the organization in real time.

Callan [0:15:01]: It's centralized.

Callan [0:15:01]: The...

Callan [0:15:02]: Okay.

Callan [0:15:03]: I wanna go in a little bit deeper on that.

Callan [0:15:06]: Because I think that's really interesting Is this just like, a a brain that you, like, a get,

Travis [0:15:10]: like, get.

Travis [0:15:11]: We actually do...

Travis [0:15:12]: Have a internal product called Vouch brain.

Travis [0:15:14]: Yeah.

Travis [0:15:14]: So you're spot on.

Travis [0:15:16]: So it's it's that...

Travis [0:15:17]: And then, look, there's a couple other ingredients there that I should talk about, which is, like, the fact that we serve both small startups ups?

Travis [0:15:22]: And companies that are spending millions of dollars a year on coverage.

Travis [0:15:25]: We go from seed to scale because we're not just the digital broker just a legacy broker because we we really are using technology to do both.

Travis [0:15:34]: That allows us to bring talent in, get a lot of reps in that early part of the business.

Travis [0:15:38]: Right?

Travis [0:15:39]: So they're getting...

Travis [0:15:40]: I think a much higher velocity of reps and they might get elsewhere, that just again allows them to come up to speed a lot a lot faster.

Callan [0:15:47]: Well, you got...

Callan [0:15:47]: You have an interesting niche.

Callan [0:15:48]: Right?

Callan [0:15:48]: You have a niche that if that niche were...

Callan [0:15:51]: Well, it's kinda high risk high reward because it's you're taking the risk with them.

Callan [0:15:54]: It's highly possible.

Callan [0:15:56]: A lot of those startups ups won't be there any longer.

Callan [0:15:58]: But the ones that do, if we look at the long tail here become massive, and you're growing with them and you're giving those producers.

Callan [0:16:05]: That's interesting.

Travis [0:16:06]: But imagine, Right?

Travis [0:16:06]: So we bring on, let's say a Series a company that very quickly within eighteen months goes on to become a series D company worth billions of dollars.

Travis [0:16:14]: The journey on that is they might come in, you know, they might have found...

Travis [0:16:17]: Increasingly, they're find on claude or Chat.

Travis [0:16:20]: They come through a front door.

Travis [0:16:22]: They get onboard.

Travis [0:16:22]: That client manager that's working with them at Series a is more junior in their career.

Travis [0:16:27]: But as we have the data signals to monitor.

Travis [0:16:29]: Like, alright, they're growing, they're looping in our head of Ai.

Travis [0:16:33]: These more senior experienced folks that they get to work directly with and learn from and write shotgun on with.

Travis [0:16:38]: And so they get to see that growth and go from.

Travis [0:16:42]: Alright.

Travis [0:16:42]: My job here is to just service the account and get coverage done quickly and try to explain the benefits of coverage to...

Travis [0:16:48]: Oh, no.

Travis [0:16:49]: This is a sophisticated Gc.

Travis [0:16:50]: And this is how I have to really show up as a sophisticated expert.

Travis [0:16:54]: And so that's what I mean by those reps, They're getting...

Travis [0:16:56]: I think a lot of that in real time.

Callan [0:16:58]: Well, they can practice on the really easy ones that have...

Callan [0:17:00]: That looked very similar across the board herd.

Callan [0:17:03]: Just gonna me some nuances depending on what their focus is, but they're very similar.

Callan [0:17:07]: But then as the companies grow, and they grow in their career, they can start take...

Callan [0:17:11]: I'm gonna say random things here, But like, they could take on the Series b companies.

Callan [0:17:14]: And the Series c companies.

Callan [0:17:15]: And then when you're getting all the way up Now you've got, like, a true risk manager that you're pulling in.

Callan [0:17:20]: You got your Ai expert.

Callan [0:17:21]: On...

Callan [0:17:22]: Because that's a whole another world on actually ensuring the Ai companies, which is interesting.

Callan [0:17:26]: But I didn't thought about that from the niche perspective and giving people the opportunity to...

Callan [0:17:31]: Well given an opportunity to grow, but oftentimes, you're kinda just thrown in to If you're...

Callan [0:17:38]: You know, very different types of businesses, you have to know all sorts of different things.

Callan [0:17:42]: You don't have that opportunity to see the same thing and then grow with it.

Travis [0:17:47]: It's one of the benefits of our business model that didn't fully appreciate going in.

Travis [0:17:50]: Right?

Travis [0:17:50]: Without unfortunately I.

Travis [0:17:52]: Fortunate to benefit from it.

Travis [0:17:53]: But, actually, this kinda comes back to the point on Ai native operating because it is all about the one advantage we have as a start up versus the incumbents is our speed.

Travis [0:18:02]: What I mean by that is the speed of our feedback and learning loop.

Travis [0:18:05]: And so if we can keep those learning loops as short as possible, both for the individual and for the company and increasingly for the technology we're building that learns from itself, that's really our early only chance to win long term.

Travis [0:18:17]: And so couple things on that.

Travis [0:18:19]: When we talk about Ai native operating principles, it is all about prototyping, shipping and iterating and learning.

Travis [0:18:25]: Right?

Travis [0:18:26]: Versus the traditional, like, software development life cycle of I'm gonna go talk to some people.

Travis [0:18:31]: I'm gonna write a product spec, and then the engineers are gonna write their own spec, and those aren't necessarily gonna see I.

Travis [0:18:36]: And then we're gonna go file some tickets and create a Jira board and we're gonna take six months to go build this thing.

Travis [0:18:41]: Versus, right now, we have Pms that are shipping their own P and using Cloud coded develop.

Travis [0:18:48]: We have engineers that are now spending a lot more time with our frontline team and our clients that are doing more of that product work and like, those roles are converging.

Travis [0:18:55]: As I mentioned before, we've got brokers and producers that are, like, actively developing their own tools.

Travis [0:19:00]: And so that is really, like, you talk about accelerating your learning loops.

Travis [0:19:05]: I think that's what we're really focused on both in terms of like, talent development and in terms of, like, product development.

Travis [0:19:10]: And just to go back to the talent development side for a moment, we actually don't have a formal training and development program.

Travis [0:19:16]: And a lot of folks would like that.

Travis [0:19:19]: And, you know, there's certainly...

Travis [0:19:20]: We're...

Travis [0:19:20]: We do some stuff don't get me wrong.

Travis [0:19:22]: But I really think the best learning both happens not like by doing.

Travis [0:19:25]: But how do we create, like, truly agent learning systems so that that learning and coaching is happening in real time.

Travis [0:19:31]: Like, give you an example.

Travis [0:19:32]: We use Gong to record the vast majority of our client conversations.

Travis [0:19:35]: The traditional way of coaching against that is, alright.

Travis [0:19:38]: Let's go pull some calls and we'll review them as a team and we'll review in your one on ones, we'll have these active coaching conversations.

Travis [0:19:43]: If you set your automations up appropriately folks can get real time coaching feedback.

Travis [0:19:48]: We had one of our producers create with Claude, a call simulator so that new reps can do simulated calls in real time that was developed based on all Gong data that we had.

Travis [0:19:58]: We've got our product team analyzing gong calls in real time.

Travis [0:20:01]: Our claude is analyzing that for in real time.

Travis [0:20:03]: So that's what I mean by accelerated learning loops and and Ai need operating principles.

Callan [0:20:07]: Okay.

Callan [0:20:07]: So you mentioned the guide rose.

Callan [0:20:09]: This was something that came up at dinner, and one of the founders had said something that that he thought the the role of the Cto right now, You know, you're describing essentially a can canadian...

Callan [0:20:19]: Yeah.

Callan [0:20:20]: I know you're mentioning you're not Ai native because he didn't start that way, but we were describing as Ai native company to the team.

Callan [0:20:24]: And he was saying that the role of a Cto in an Ai native company is to establish those boundaries and guide rails for the people within the company.

Callan [0:20:36]: Because but, obviously, the fear is...

Callan [0:20:38]: I never heard that I was, that's super interesting.

Callan [0:20:40]: Because the fear is is that you can use c.

Callan [0:20:43]: We've all used c and I've gone haywire on the thing.

Callan [0:20:46]: I think anybody...

Callan [0:20:47]: I say c because I'm not as sophisticated to use cloud code, although I the old bolt Penguin engineers is gonna help me with it.

Callan [0:20:54]: So I use c for everything.

Callan [0:20:55]: But...

Callan [0:20:56]: Yeah.

Callan [0:20:56]: That thing can go, haywire wire.

Callan [0:20:58]: And I have it set up, Like, you know, on a Mac Mini, so I can actually...

Callan [0:21:01]: So I don't have to have given permission to do everything, which I...

Callan [0:21:04]: It's risk its own.

Callan [0:21:05]: Right?

Callan [0:21:05]: But how do you see that?

Callan [0:21:06]: Do you see that similarly in that Like, if executive positions to create the guide rails and How do they do that?

Callan [0:21:12]: What does that look like?

Travis [0:21:13]: Absolutely.

Travis [0:21:13]: So back to the, like, operate in the high trust industry.

Travis [0:21:16]: The stakes are high when we get it wrong.

Travis [0:21:17]: And so it's been really important to have that human in the loop.

Travis [0:21:20]: And pretty much everything that we do.

Travis [0:21:22]: Right?

Travis [0:21:22]: Like, we've...

Travis [0:21:23]: We're not at this point shipping to production, client facing fully automated workflows.

Travis [0:21:28]: So you can toggle with your permissions within cloud c.

Travis [0:21:31]: Right?

Travis [0:21:31]: To say, like, always ask for permission on certain things.

Travis [0:21:34]: Right?

Travis [0:21:34]: Like, so that's, like, kinda table stakes.

Travis [0:21:36]: But when I talk about setting up the platt form that is so much of what our Cto and our engineering team has been focused on.

Travis [0:21:40]: Where do you need the human in the loop to both?

Travis [0:21:43]: I make sure the system's is learning effectively, but also to provide that kinda, like, sign off.

Travis [0:21:47]: I've got to your point on how it transforms how we work I've got my, like, virtual assistant or chief of staff if you will, running in Cloud Ko all the time.

Travis [0:21:55]: They've got a morning scheduled task that does my, like, my digest, takes all my emails, drafts replies, put them in the draft folder, draft replies all my Slacks, etcetera.

Travis [0:22:04]: Does the same thing at the end of the day, and like, any of my calls are recorded, gives me feedback on all that kind of stuff.

Travis [0:22:09]: Right?

Travis [0:22:09]: But critically, it goes in the drafts folder, and then I go and do a lot of editing, send it, and then it learns from the edits I made.

Travis [0:22:16]: And a lot of our team has their own dashboard and then set up along those lines.

Travis [0:22:19]: But you have to have the human in the loop at this stage because it as great as these tools are are.

Travis [0:22:25]: I was talking to one of our our Ai engineers about this.

Travis [0:22:28]: He's still gotta manage it like an intern.

Travis [0:22:30]: And these interns are getting better and better.

Travis [0:22:32]: But that's how I've had think how you have to think better.

Callan [0:22:35]: So is there an approval process for that?

Callan [0:22:36]: Let's say, let's just need a producer for, for example.

Callan [0:22:39]: Producer comes up with a great idea, a great workflow.

Callan [0:22:42]: They map it out.

Callan [0:22:43]: They kinda architect it?

Callan [0:22:44]: They build the clause skills, they do all that thing, and it's ready to go to be, like, actually outreach or something it's gonna be customer interactive in some way.

Callan [0:22:52]: Let's just say, how does that look?

Callan [0:22:53]: Do they have the autonomy to just for, lack of better terms, pull the trigger on that.

Callan [0:22:58]: Or just an engineer Qa that?

Callan [0:23:01]: Or what does that look like?

Travis [0:23:02]: So, look, it starts with having, I think, solid, like, It and procurement practices in place that, like, yeah, we are proving the tools they're using and the data permissions that are set up around that.

Travis [0:23:10]: So that's, like, table six.

Travis [0:23:12]: I'll use an example.

Travis [0:23:13]: So, Natalie, one of our client managers on our Fintech team, Fintech and Crypto.

Travis [0:23:17]: She and Chad, the leader of that team or two, I'd say have our more, like Ai forward Ai native folks on the brokerage team.

Travis [0:23:23]: And they had a really big room renewal call coming up.

Travis [0:23:26]: One of those companies that was tripling year over year, and their coverage are going way up, And that's a tough conversation to have.

Travis [0:23:32]: Right?

Travis [0:23:32]: Where, hey, your limits need to go up.

Travis [0:23:34]: Your rating factors are all going up.

Travis [0:23:36]: And so your spend is gonna dramatically increase.

Travis [0:23:38]: And so she had created this renewal proposal automated deck experience, specifically going into this call because we had been working on some of the stuff in the background, but she was the first one that really said you know what?

Travis [0:23:49]: I'm gonna use our new brand templates.

Travis [0:23:50]: I'm gonna use all this data that we have at our disposal, and Claude created the entire renewal proposal for her And by the way, she was a client coordinator this time a year ago.

Travis [0:24:00]: And she went to Chad, the director of her team, and reviewed it with him, and then she went to that call, nailed it and came out with a client now spending several hundred thousand dollars year with her.

Travis [0:24:09]: Then, went to the Talk Ai channel, shared it out to the rest of the team.

Travis [0:24:13]: Our marketing team and our pro engineering team said great.

Travis [0:24:16]: Let's go do a couple turns on this and now push it live to the rest of the company.

Travis [0:24:19]: And, obviously, when our Ai builder the week record that week.

Callan [0:24:23]: I got a hundred bucks.

Callan [0:24:23]: Yeah.

Callan [0:24:24]: In addition to whatever.

Callan [0:24:26]: Yeah.

Callan [0:24:27]: She made out the renewal.

Callan [0:24:28]: So...

Callan [0:24:28]: Okay.

Callan [0:24:28]: I love that the checks and balances.

Callan [0:24:30]: That makes total sense.

Callan [0:24:31]: Honestly, hats all her for taking that risk.

Callan [0:24:33]: Because that's scary.

Callan [0:24:34]: Like, if you're gonna go with an Ai generated renewal.

Callan [0:24:36]: That's interesting.

Callan [0:24:37]: The thing I think I'm really interested about is you're kind of proving that middle market and large commercial are gonna likely change?

Callan [0:24:44]: Because I think a lot of people are in a buck because...

Callan [0:24:47]: Well, let me ask you this.

Callan [0:24:49]: Do your brokers was it just that Natalie could have went and done that?

Callan [0:24:54]: Or did Natalie just happen to be up to bat for that renewal?

Callan [0:24:57]: Could somebody else have jumped in on that renewal?

Callan [0:25:00]: Or did Natalie own that relationship?

Travis [0:25:03]: She owned that relationship?

Callan [0:25:04]: Okay.

Travis [0:25:04]: Right.

Travis [0:25:04]: Yeah.

Travis [0:25:04]: So it was important that she had the context that we can trust her with these things because she's proven time again to be a detailed oriented person and that she's gonna take the time and care to go review all those details and get it right, or her manager chad is one of the same thing.

Travis [0:25:17]: Right?

Travis [0:25:17]: So, like, yeah.

Travis [0:25:18]: That's all true.

Travis [0:25:19]: And we try to take a very eighteen based approach these things.

Travis [0:25:21]: Right?

Travis [0:25:21]: So a client works with our Ai team.

Travis [0:25:24]: They work with our Fintech and Crypto team so that, yeah, they can cover each other and be there support each other and then they all have access the same information.

Travis [0:25:31]: However, it is so critical back to the relationship side of things that Can somebody read the notes and go watch last year's calls and, like, get up to speed and gets the context?

Travis [0:25:41]: Yeah.

Travis [0:25:42]: But we see it in the data when a client manager is on the same account two, three, four years later.

Travis [0:25:49]: The net revenue retention on those accounts goes through the roof.

Travis [0:25:53]: Right?

Travis [0:25:53]: This is one of the differences our model.

Travis [0:25:55]: We are not a producer driven shop or, like, the producer brings it in and owns the relationship that is a different model.

Travis [0:26:00]: Our client managers really own that relationship long term.

Travis [0:26:02]: And I can talk about why we did it that way.

Travis [0:26:04]: So, yeah, The relationship stuff still really important.

Callan [0:26:06]: But still, whether it's a producer or a client manager, somebody owns that relationship, and that's still very important.

Callan [0:26:12]: That's interesting.

Callan [0:26:13]: And which when you think of how valuable the producers are in any large broker.

Callan [0:26:18]: This isn't a secret.

Callan [0:26:19]: Like, they own deep relationships and the odds of them going somewhere else of this person's because they're same thing.

Callan [0:26:26]: They're bringing in risk managers and they're making sure that they're they trust that they're gonna put them with the right group.

Callan [0:26:32]: So...

Callan [0:26:32]: But that makes sense.

Callan [0:26:33]: And then and so you are essentially enabling them, but the speed of what you described, that's rare.

Callan [0:26:38]: It's rare.

Callan [0:26:39]: You're gonna get somebody, how long should be with the company?

Callan [0:26:41]: Maybe

Travis [0:26:43]: two years.

Callan [0:26:44]: And she's got like, like, a one of these giant accounts.

Travis [0:26:47]: Already been promoted one.

Travis [0:26:48]: And that's part of the reason why we take this team based approach on things is because we have such talent velocity where your best people come in and they get promoted multiple times within a few years.

Travis [0:26:55]: They're not gonna be stuck managing the same book all the time.

Travis [0:26:59]: So you do have to have this team based approach to it.

Travis [0:27:01]: And that's why we wanna position Chad within the Fintech and crypto vertical as that expert and he's got a whole team that you're working with.

Travis [0:27:07]: But, yeah, We see it every single one of those vertical teams has folks like Natalie that, you know, started their career early and it very quickly moved up the ladder because they earned...

Travis [0:27:15]: The client stressed.

Travis [0:27:16]: They earned our trust and, you know, they're they're doing great.

Callan [0:27:18]: So the wild part to me is how she earned it that fast.

Callan [0:27:21]: Yeah.

Callan [0:27:21]: You know, a lot of those producers have been there for years in years and years before they get to that point.

Callan [0:27:26]: This is not a not.

Callan [0:27:27]: Right, that producer is phenomenal.

Callan [0:27:29]: But to earn that trust that fast and do a deal like that.

Callan [0:27:31]: I mean, I applaud that, but, like, the speed in which you can do that.

Callan [0:27:34]: That's pretty incredible.

Callan [0:27:35]: That's a great use case for what you're talking about.

Callan [0:27:38]: You mentioned that was phase one?

Callan [0:27:39]: What's phase two?

Travis [0:27:41]: Some of this converge with the transformation in our business from, again, primarily being a carrier early on to being a broker.

Travis [0:27:47]: The Ai moment and that moment for us is a business all happen at the same time.

Travis [0:27:51]: And that's not necessarily coincidence.

Travis [0:27:52]: So phase one, just get out their experiment, do stuff.

Travis [0:27:55]: Phase two build the core infrastructure that really enables this at scale.

Travis [0:27:59]: And then phase three is to industrial expertise.

Travis [0:28:03]: So it's that that Theme I talked about a minute ago of, yes.

Travis [0:28:05]: So we're gonna continue to automate workflows and all those things absolutely.

Travis [0:28:08]: Then are we gonna allow people to delegate more and more of the work to agents?

Travis [0:28:13]: That's true both for...

Travis [0:28:14]: Starting with our team and and eventually here for our clients.

Travis [0:28:16]: But I think where the real magic happens is how do you take all of that data, take all that expertise and create the agents that are helping to both help our individuals become experts faster and help convey that expertise to the client.

Travis [0:28:29]: Right?

Travis [0:28:29]: Imagine a world where, increasingly, the clients we work with are del more of their operations to agents.

Travis [0:28:35]: And so, you know, again, we see every month It's like doubling month over month, the number of leads we see that found us through one answer engine or another.

Callan [0:28:44]: I ae own in particular has to some of the highest conversion rates Ever seen?

Travis [0:28:47]: It's it's incredible.

Travis [0:28:48]: And now what's gonna happen next is that same buyer is gonna say, great.

Travis [0:28:52]: Can you please go, like, take the next step in the journey?

Travis [0:28:54]: And those systems are increasing and have access to their data to go actually gather a submission?

Travis [0:28:59]: So we're working through right now what exactly that's gonna look like.

Travis [0:29:02]: Right?

Travis [0:29:03]: That...

Travis [0:29:03]: There's debates between, like, is it an Mc?

Travis [0:29:05]: Is it a command line interface?

Travis [0:29:07]: Is it we have opinions, but we're not totally there yet.

Travis [0:29:09]: The point is I see us a client experience emerging where the machines are gonna do a lot of that submission prep work.

Travis [0:29:16]: And a lot of that expertise that historically lives to the broker needs to be in that experience.

Travis [0:29:22]: Right?

Travis [0:29:22]: Like, we see this all the time where clients are working with a generic claude instance, and they're asking questions about the policy, but, like, again, back to the interim thing, their claude doesn't really know insurance, particularly.

Travis [0:29:34]: No.

Travis [0:29:35]: That's right.

Travis [0:29:35]: Yeah.

Travis [0:29:35]: And so we we also see clients coming in with a lot of really informed questions as a result of that.

Travis [0:29:41]: And so we need to be that source where other agents can trust the expertise that we're providing.

Travis [0:29:48]: Now, ultimately, that all needs to ladder up back to this point earlier, fifty percent of you...

Travis [0:29:52]: At least it and certainly as you go up market that numbers were like, a hundred percent of people want to work with the trusted human.

Travis [0:29:57]: So instead of having three calls where you're going back and forth and having a bunch of email change to get the right information together, it should be...

Travis [0:30:05]: The agents are doing a lot of that work, and you're getting on a call to confirm to provide your advice your perspective on what you're seeing in the market.

Travis [0:30:12]: And again, allowing those individuals to really focus on relationships and the expertise that really they can only provide.

Callan [0:30:20]: So you talked about that transition from going from a carrier to a broker.

Callan [0:30:25]: What does that look like?

Callan [0:30:26]: Woods spurred that along, or walk us through that?

Travis [0:30:29]: So you go back when we started the business, a few things were true.

Travis [0:30:31]: The problem that we're were seeking to solve.

Travis [0:30:33]: Is for the venture backed startups that my cofounder and I had been working, you know, working for the prior decade or so with.

Travis [0:30:39]: One, it was still a very manual experience, like, very Pdf and email driven.

Travis [0:30:44]: Two, the coverage itself really wasn't designed for the needs for emerging risks.

Travis [0:30:48]: So also, at the time, interest rates are low.

Travis [0:30:52]: Capital was abundant.

Travis [0:30:53]: And so to go build a full site carrier in this space, we felt was like, was not just like I was like, what we needed to do to deliver the value we we wanted to clients.

Travis [0:31:01]: Because Apis were really just kind of becoming a real thing in the commercial space.

Travis [0:31:06]: When founders need coverage they needed yesterday.

Travis [0:31:08]: And so to provide instant coverage to be able to do cyber, you know, D o for Fintech and digital health and the emerging risk categories, we had to build it ourselves.

Travis [0:31:17]: So we start off in Mg, and then very quickly thereafter launch our own reins insurance entity and became close enough to a full stack carrier.

Travis [0:31:24]: And that allowed us to find quick product market fit and scaled rapidly, and that was all great.

Travis [0:31:29]: But then a couple things happened.

Travis [0:31:30]: First, you know, our clients started growing, and we realized pretty quickly, like, we're gonna need to build a brokerage here in order to get in order to complement our in house coverage in order to actually build towers to go scale with these folks, etcetera.

Travis [0:31:42]: So we stood that up in, like, twenty twenty one twenty twenty two.

Travis [0:31:45]: But again, it's was just like a little side part of the business.

Travis [0:31:48]: And, like, we'd...

Travis [0:31:49]: Explicitly, like, isolated those resources so they could get it off the ground, which meant like, the systems didn't really talk to each other.

Travis [0:31:54]: And then for the next few years, that part of the business kept growing faster and faster, our clients kept growing faster and getting more complex.

Travis [0:32:01]: But more importantly, the landscape around is evolved.

Travis [0:32:04]: So first, Apis became more more prevalent.

Travis [0:32:08]: So you can now get a lot of great options there.

Travis [0:32:10]: Similarly carrier appetite for emerging risk has really evolved.

Travis [0:32:14]: So you go back two years ago, Vouch when we had our in house carrier at it's the time called Cor, launched the first of its kind Ai coverage.

Travis [0:32:21]: Like affirmative coverage or on, you know, for Ai risk.

Travis [0:32:24]: At the time, where only ones doing it.

Travis [0:32:26]: And then as we had more and more companies get really big.

Travis [0:32:29]: We're able to bring other carriers to the table and build start building towers on top of that.

Travis [0:32:32]: And today, there's now at least ten markets that we can work with around that.

Travis [0:32:36]: Yeah.

Travis [0:32:36]: Now there's a debate today of, like, is it...

Travis [0:32:38]: It...

Travis [0:32:38]: Do you want affirmative coverage.

Travis [0:32:39]: Do you want to be silent.

Travis [0:32:40]: Typically the right answer is actually for it to be silent.

Travis [0:32:43]: Now that you have this has evolved because you now actually have carriers putting explicit restrictions around that.

Travis [0:32:48]: But anyways, we could have a coverage conversation at their time?

Travis [0:32:51]: Point being there's now appetite for emerging risk.

Travis [0:32:54]: There's now Apis.

Travis [0:32:55]: And so in a lot of ways, we were doing our clients to disservice by having our in house products.

Travis [0:33:01]: Because no matter how much we tried to say, hey, we've gotta get the right thing for the client.

Travis [0:33:06]: It doesn't matter.

Travis [0:33:06]: At the end of the day, It was the number one thing the competitors were selling against.

Travis [0:33:10]: Right.

Travis [0:33:10]: And the incentive speak for themselves.

Travis [0:33:12]: It's very true That makes total sense to me.

Travis [0:33:15]: Yeah.

Travis [0:33:15]: Yeah.

Travis [0:33:15]: So it was the right thing for our clients.

Travis [0:33:18]: And also, by the way, when I run a broker motion versus when I run a direct carrier motion, my conversion rates double.

Travis [0:33:24]: My account level retention goes up by ten points.

Travis [0:33:27]: So resulted in better business performance.

Travis [0:33:30]: And it'll also allowed us to do something really critical, which was we were building a really complex business.

Travis [0:33:36]: Right?

Travis [0:33:36]: We had Karen, and we were really focused on living profitable underwriting results.

Travis [0:33:39]: I'm very proud of of the underwriting results that we delivered, But that also acts as a governor for growth.

Travis [0:33:44]: Right?

Travis [0:33:44]: And so we were spreading our resources incredibly thin.

Travis [0:33:48]: We built really interesting technology on the carrier side of the house.

Travis [0:33:50]: But as a result, like, the brokers side of the house was kinda getting starved for resources and attention.

Travis [0:33:55]: I guess it would've have been almost two years ago now that we said, alright, we gotta do something to to change this.

Travis [0:34:00]: We need to drive both more focus in the business, and we also need to free up our capital and our resources to really go all in on where we see the opportunity going forward.

Travis [0:34:08]: The last thing I'll mentioned on that is when you look at the value chain of a carrier or sort, like, the economics of a carrier and look at the economics of a brokerage.

Travis [0:34:16]: I personally think there's a lot more opportunity for Ai within the brokerage than there is the carrier.

Travis [0:34:21]: At the end of the day, you're still on a commercial P and C business and management lines and cyber, you're gonna be paying somewhere between fifty and seventy percent out in losses.

Travis [0:34:30]: That's just a, like, a a fact.

Travis [0:34:32]: And can you move the expense ratio down a bit?

Travis [0:34:35]: Yeah.

Travis [0:34:35]: For sure.

Travis [0:34:36]: But you look at the brokerage side of the value chain.

Travis [0:34:38]: It's all customer acquisition cost and people cost.

Travis [0:34:41]: And both of those things are gonna be pretty dramatically transformed over over the next few years.

Travis [0:34:46]: And so we just saw a lot more opportunity and this sort of green space on that side of the house.

Travis [0:34:50]: So couple years ago, we decided we gotta go do something about the carrier.

Travis [0:34:54]: Started to process.

Travis [0:34:55]: I get my c founder understand a ton of credit on this.

Travis [0:34:57]: He really let it.

Travis [0:34:58]: And within eight months, went from starting the process to selling the carrier to his cox, and they've been a phenomenal partner.

Travis [0:35:03]: Right?

Travis [0:35:03]: You think about the fit there.

Travis [0:35:04]: Oh, yeah.

Travis [0:35:05]: It's been phenomenal.

Travis [0:35:06]: And so that transaction, we announced it August of last year just had the final close a few weeks ago, and, you know, we're still going through some of the the dis and the dust is still settling sure.

Travis [0:35:16]: Of course.

Travis [0:35:16]: But we couldn't have gotten to this point without starting that way.

Travis [0:35:20]: And I would say, like, having had that experience.

Travis [0:35:22]: In a lot of ways, we know how under writers think.

Travis [0:35:25]: It's helped give us, I think, a a stronger perspective as a broker, but, I think it was maybe one of the best things we've ever done and has led to this moment where I've just never been more excited about the future the business.

Callan [0:35:36]: Whoa.

Callan [0:35:36]: For good reason also, you transition to CEO.

Callan [0:35:40]: First, congrats, this is pretty recent.

Callan [0:35:43]: And what has that transition been like for you.

Callan [0:35:46]: I've told you before, I've always had a lot of respect for Yeah.

Callan [0:35:50]: I always felt you really earned that next title.

Callan [0:35:53]: So I would love to kinda hear it from your...

Callan [0:35:56]: Like, how you think about this?

Callan [0:35:58]: And what does that mean for you to take that spot?

Travis [0:36:02]: Yeah.

Travis [0:36:02]: Yeah.

Travis [0:36:02]: It's funny.

Travis [0:36:02]: Yeah.

Travis [0:36:03]: I always laughed when athletes or somebody to say, oh, this is such a humbling experience, but I actually fully appreciate that right now, I think in a lot of ways because one, it's just the en of it and and I think I feel so honored and, like, privileged to be in this seat.

Travis [0:36:16]: But also because, like, I've learned so much from my c founder sam over the last eight years.

Travis [0:36:22]: If you go back to the early days of the business.

Travis [0:36:23]: Right?

Travis [0:36:24]: I was this young guy running around Silicon Valley talking about Insure tech and before that, like Ar vr and all the shiny objects.

Travis [0:36:31]: But, like, I think it's better to be lucky than good and consistently in my career I found myself, like, very fortunate to be working with just amazing people that have helped helped me grow a lot.

Travis [0:36:40]: And so, you know, I was thinking about the ideas for Vouch I'll the way back in like, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen.

Travis [0:36:45]: Yeah.

Travis [0:36:46]: For sure.

Travis [0:36:46]: And if I would have gone to try to start that company on my own.

Travis [0:36:50]: Would have been pretty laughed out of the room.

Travis [0:36:53]: Like, I didn't really have...

Travis [0:36:54]: I couldn't have raised the capital it took to go get this thing off the ground.

Travis [0:36:57]: I couldn't have had been credible with regulators and reins.

Travis [0:36:59]: But Sam was.

Travis [0:37:01]: Right?

Travis [0:37:01]: He took his last company in public.

Travis [0:37:02]: He has that g.

Travis [0:37:03]: Fact, he's, like, so impressive it's kind of intimidating.

Travis [0:37:05]: That's another...

Travis [0:37:06]: Another topic.

Travis [0:37:07]: But he...

Travis [0:37:08]: In a lot of ways, like, it took me members swing and we've just have just learned a lot from him.

Travis [0:37:11]: And we've been opposites the whole way.

Travis [0:37:13]: Right?

Travis [0:37:13]: Like, what he's...

Travis [0:37:13]: We...

Travis [0:37:14]: Our strengths and weaknesses really complement each other.

Travis [0:37:16]: So anyways, we started having this conversation in earnest a few months ago as the dust was sort of settling from selling Cor and, you know, Sam Candy is like, look, we've been talking about this might be a possibility someday, and we've been through a lot, and I'm pretty tucker out, and I think you're the right person for, you know, the next chapter of Vouch.

Travis [0:37:34]: And what we call Vouch two dot o.

Travis [0:37:36]: And so we started, you know, working through the plans what that's gonna look like and at Camp Vouch in Austin in mid May.

Travis [0:37:42]: We got in front of the whole company and announced it.

Travis [0:37:45]: And Sam we're in Texas and so he gets up there and he goes.

Travis [0:37:48]: I've told Travis, like, to be CEO, you've gotta have a big head, and it's there his time to wear the big hat.

Travis [0:37:52]: So he took off his cowboy hat, put it on my head and hand me a little bell buckle to settle Cafe.

Travis [0:37:57]: So we had some follow with it.

Travis [0:37:59]: You know, it's great.

Travis [0:38:00]: He's the exec chairman today and going forward.

Travis [0:38:02]: So we saw the opportunity to work really closely together.

Travis [0:38:04]: We're very good friends.

Travis [0:38:05]: He's gonna come to Columbus for the oregon game here this fall.

Travis [0:38:06]: I'm excited about that.

Callan [0:38:07]: I love that.

Callan [0:38:08]: That's the right move by far.

Callan [0:38:09]: Yeah.

Callan [0:38:09]: He grew

Travis [0:38:10]: up in Oregon.

Travis [0:38:10]: So, you know, we better win.

Travis [0:38:11]: But...

Travis [0:38:12]: Yeah.

Travis [0:38:13]: So that's been a real a real privilege and then I think As I mentioned before, like, we are just so uniquely situated as a business right now.

Travis [0:38:21]: Admittedly, last summer, I took a few weeks off for the first time in the business.

Travis [0:38:25]: Right?

Travis [0:38:25]: Like, it had been a pretty grueling seven years to get to that point.

Travis [0:38:28]: And really took a step back to, like, alright.

Travis [0:38:30]: I could go down this path and and take over CEO, I could go back to investing.

Travis [0:38:35]: I could go start like, what I wanna do.

Travis [0:38:37]: And really reflecting on it.

Travis [0:38:40]: I feel like everything in my life has led to this moment.

Travis [0:38:43]: And that this is my life's work, like, I get to work with these amazing clients I love our team.

Travis [0:38:47]: I love the problems we're solving.

Travis [0:38:48]: I came home...

Travis [0:38:49]: I think it was last night until my wife, like, I love my job.

Travis [0:38:53]: It's really in.

Travis [0:38:55]: And it's such a moment in time.

Travis [0:38:57]: Right?

Travis [0:38:57]: Like, a lot of folks have talked about within the Ai native, like, services economy.

Travis [0:39:02]: Insurance brokerage is the number one opportunity.

Travis [0:39:04]: And both in terms of market size, and as I mentioned before, I think the opportunity to really disrupt the value chain and how work gets done.

Travis [0:39:10]: So that's all incredibly exciting and we're now, you know, after we're selling Cor were more than fully capitalized.

Travis [0:39:16]: Will be profitable later this year, and, you know, just because we're making such big and sharing investments.

Travis [0:39:20]: And we just fully control our own destiny.

Travis [0:39:22]: And so as I told the team in Austin.

Travis [0:39:24]: I know you and I both listened listen to the acquired podcast.

Travis [0:39:26]: Shout out Been and David.

Travis [0:39:28]: And as I told them, you know, look, if you listen to a lot of the those episodes about some of the best companies in history.

Travis [0:39:33]: I'll use, like, Microsoft and Apple and, like, Ferrari is examples where the first episode, if you will, is all about laying the foundation and doing these really hard things.

Travis [0:39:42]: And today, when I was at Came back on Stage said today is the end of that first episode.

Travis [0:39:47]: And in episode two, that's where most of the value gets created.

Travis [0:39:51]: So

Callan [0:39:55]: I love it.

Callan [0:39:56]: So travis...

Callan [0:39:57]: I...

Callan [0:39:58]: Here's where...

Callan [0:39:58]: Is a perfect segue to wrap this up.

Callan [0:40:00]: The last question I have is, we're having this conversation in ten years time, and everything went to plan, what does it look like?

Travis [0:40:10]: So we actually did this exercise at a leadership.

Travis [0:40:12]: I like to do this exercise occasionally where we we write the success failure letters as a leadership team.

Travis [0:40:17]: Right?

Travis [0:40:17]: So, hey, it's twenty thirty and Vouch was a huge success.

Travis [0:40:21]: What does it look like?

Travis [0:40:21]: How does a feel and then failure.

Travis [0:40:23]: And, you know, look, I think, fortunately, obviously, knock on wood.

Travis [0:40:27]: A lot can go wrong.

Travis [0:40:27]: But I think the failure mode at this point is we just kinda muddle along.

Travis [0:40:31]: Grow at a twenty, thirty, forty percent clip, and that's nice.

Travis [0:40:34]: May have a nice little business.

Travis [0:40:35]: But success is really dramatically accelerating our trajectory, And that's both how the work gets done, and I've seen over the last six months are...

Travis [0:40:45]: We're just shipping faster and faster and faster, and those learning loops are accelerating.

Travis [0:40:48]: So those are the ingredients that have to be true.

Travis [0:40:51]: But from a business perspective, you know, look, we are laying the groundwork today to, I think pretty rapidly expand in other categories that have similar characteristics.

Travis [0:41:00]: Right?

Travis [0:41:01]: Complex underserved fast growing.

Travis [0:41:03]: The good news is we see that happening in every single industry right now.

Travis [0:41:07]: In fact, we're seeing this explosion in solo the entrepreneurs and showing up on our funnel.

Callan [0:41:12]: Oh, Right?

Callan [0:41:13]: I again it's gotta be out control.

Travis [0:41:14]: It's...

Travis [0:41:14]: I I was just looking at the chart today, and it's like, it's gotta be growing at least twenty, thirty percent month over were month on hundred percent believe.

Travis [0:41:21]: And so point being, we're here to fuel entrepreneurship and enable to enable that growth.

Travis [0:41:26]: And so what does the business what's does the future look like?

Travis [0:41:29]: Look, I would love to continue compounding vouchers as a private company for decades.

Travis [0:41:34]: And what I think in this space for like an Ai native services business?

Travis [0:41:38]: The metrics that really matter are still gonna come down to, like, revenue and eb.

Travis [0:41:42]: Right?

Travis [0:41:43]: People really care about that.

Travis [0:41:44]: But I think revenue pre is really gonna be leading indicator.

Callan [0:41:47]: Yeah absolutely.

Callan [0:41:47]: It's already is.

Callan [0:41:48]: It already is becoming a a huge Kpi that was not look.

Callan [0:41:51]: I mean, obviously, we're hearing about it like crazy, but like, investors are really looking at that now.

Callan [0:41:56]: Are you seeing that?

Travis [0:41:57]: Oh, yeah.

Travis [0:41:57]: Absolutely.

Travis [0:41:57]: Yeah.

Travis [0:41:57]: It's we're just talking about it at our board meeting this week.

Travis [0:42:00]: So, you know, those are the metrics ways we're focused on.

Travis [0:42:02]: But ultimately, the goal here is to build the most trusted brand in every segment that we choose to plan.

Travis [0:42:08]: And, yeah, that shows up in Mps.

Travis [0:42:10]: It shows up in conversion retention, but it also...

Travis [0:42:12]: It just shows up in hire clients talk about you.

Travis [0:42:14]: And, yeah.

Travis [0:42:15]: So that's the ambition.

Travis [0:42:16]: We wanna be the trusted broker for the lower middle market.

Travis [0:42:20]: For complex underserved risk.

Callan [0:42:22]: That makes total sense.

Callan [0:42:23]: And it's also very interesting about the compounding private company.

Callan [0:42:26]: I love that.

Callan [0:42:27]: The revenues per employee.

Callan [0:42:29]: The interesting thing about that is when you're growing as fast as you that does not mean that we have to get there by getting rid of our employees.

Callan [0:42:36]: You're putting all the things in place to make each of those creating exponential revenue with the employees that you have today while continuing to add them.

Callan [0:42:45]: Is that how you think about it?

Travis [0:42:46]: Absolutely.

Travis [0:42:46]: And look, I talk very openly about this Vouch is about from a people perspective, about half the sizes it was eighteen, twenty four months ago.

Travis [0:42:54]: So, you know, I think at our peak we were about two hundred and twenty people.

Travis [0:42:57]: Today were around hundred one ten.

Travis [0:42:59]: And part of that was, you know, obviously, some folks went with Cor in the transaction, But we've been on this journey to get leaner and more efficient for a while now.

Travis [0:43:07]: And the goal going forward is to scale while keeping head count flat.

Travis [0:43:12]: I think we've got the team that we need to really go do this and obviously, of course, we'll still shift the shape of the business over time as as needs evolve.

Travis [0:43:19]: But, yeah, I think we can continue scaling this thing as roughly a hundred person company for a long time to come.

Callan [0:43:25]: Well, we'll have that conversation in the future, but this was awesome.

Callan [0:43:28]: Thanks for coming on.

Callan [0:43:29]: Thanks for breaking all this down.

Callan [0:43:30]: I a lot of fun with this.

Travis [0:43:32]: Absolutely brother.

Travis [0:43:32]: Always pleasure.