How Matt Naimoli Built a Referral Network with 1300 Custom Bobbleheads

Matt [0:00:00]: One of the things Made a successful previous to starting your own business was understanding the power of referrals, not just from former clients, but when you don't have any inform clients, you need to get referrals from centers of influence, coo in their world, could we actually network with that could have the influence and trust of our target client, enough so that when they make the introduction, it's strong.

Matt [0:00:22]: It's powerful.

Matt [0:00:23]: We already have the Vetted trust and the authority is already there.

Callan [0:00:28]: Welcome to The Insurance Growth Lab, Where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance industry.

Callan [0:00:36]: I’m Callan Harrington founder Flashgrowth And in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers and shirt tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale to channel or solved a specific growth challenge.

Callan [0:00:53]: It's no fluff just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:58]: Matt, we've been talking about this for a while.

Callan [0:01:05]: I'd trying to schedule this in between getting, like thirty inches of snow was a challenge, but now that we're on here, let's kick us off.

Callan [0:01:14]: How did you get into this?

Callan [0:01:15]: How did you get into insurance just in general?

Matt [0:01:17]: The entry into the industry originally came from a really funny place.

Matt [0:01:22]: I was baseball player in college, at least attempted.

Matt [0:01:26]: I played division one Catcher up at Uv, and I knew that heading into my senior year.

Matt [0:01:31]: I really wanted to have, like, my foot in the door with a large company.

Matt [0:01:35]: I kinda knew sales was something I was interested in.

Matt [0:01:38]: But after that, it had really no idea.

Matt [0:01:40]: So I figured, like, if I get into a internship, my senior year, get my foot the door, maybe creates an opportunity to work for that company or a company like it afterwards.

Matt [0:01:48]: Mh.

Matt [0:01:49]: And so there was a fortune one hundred company that had a office really close by, and Said, yeah, I'll go in there.

Matt [0:01:54]: I'll do a little interview and see if they're looking for interns.

Matt [0:01:56]: They were.

Matt [0:01:57]: I somehow convinced them to hire me.

Matt [0:01:59]: They were paying nineteen dollars hour, which was phenomenal back then.

Matt [0:02:03]: At the same time, I don't know if I should share this But Uv also gave me six credit for the internship.

Matt [0:02:08]: And so neither group really knew about the other, but it worked out great.

Matt [0:02:11]: I, like, walked in, you know, high five and and feeling, like, this is a great The today, though that I was hired and I actually started working there, started getting a paycheck.

Matt [0:02:20]: The manager hired me actually resigned where got fired.

Matt [0:02:24]: I no one really knows.

Matt [0:02:25]: I don't think they did that.

Matt [0:02:26]: But and so, like, I'm sitting there, like, what do I do?

Matt [0:02:30]: There's no manager.

Matt [0:02:30]: There's no replacement.

Matt [0:02:31]: There's just a couple sales reps in here.

Matt [0:02:33]: What do I go from here?

Matt [0:02:35]: And ultimately, I did some stuff, and I learned a little bit about the industry, They I worked a little bit of sales campaigns.

Matt [0:02:40]: I...

Matt [0:02:41]: But basically, like, the sales reps came with my baseball games for the next, like, three months, and I you know, brought coffee and we had some...

Matt [0:02:47]: And I left that internship thinking like, wow.

Matt [0:02:49]: Sales is for me.

Matt [0:02:51]: This is an awesome insurance is phenomenal.

Matt [0:02:53]: This insurance company like, he can't believe they paid me and I have to do, you know, basically whatever I wanted.

Matt [0:02:58]: It probably created the ignorance needed to actually feel like, yeah.

Matt [0:03:03]: This is a great, great business.

Matt [0:03:05]: And frankly, looking back.

Matt [0:03:06]: I'm so grateful.

Matt [0:03:07]: I took that step because insurance is one of those industries that, like, I think someone like myself wouldn't have gone into unless I had some ties.

Matt [0:03:15]: And so finding myself in the business in the industry and able to grow within it in so many different ways Like, I'm so grateful that that insurance should happen.

Callan [0:03:25]: You know, I was laughing specifically because mine's not very much different.

Callan [0:03:29]: I was an intern at Northwestern from mutual in college and then went full time after that.

Callan [0:03:35]: And for me, like, where I grew up, I didn't realize you could do sales as a career.

Callan [0:03:41]: So for me, when I got in, I'm like, Oh, this is interesting.

Callan [0:03:45]: Like, I knew...

Callan [0:03:46]: That I was a finance major.

Callan [0:03:47]: I was never gonna cut it in corporate finance or investment banking or Pe.

Callan [0:03:51]: Like, I didn't have those jobs.

Callan [0:03:52]: So when I got into there, Yeah, again, like you said, what stuck out Was like, I was just naive even enough to be, like, Oh, okay.

Callan [0:03:59]: This actually makes total sense.

Callan [0:04:00]: I didn't realize this world existed.

Callan [0:04:03]: And now I'm super grateful that I went that path, but I just kinda lucky to get the internship at the twenty fifth hour.

Matt [0:04:09]: Yeah.

Matt [0:04:09]: I've remember being, like, second kind of third grade and you do that test that tells you what you should be when you grow up and you know, Jimmy on my rights, a firefighter, you know, like, on my left is, like, an executive and someone's a aircraft carrier pilot or something, And, you know.

Matt [0:04:24]: And then I got sales.

Matt [0:04:26]: You know, Salesman.

Matt [0:04:27]: And I I remember a going home Just like, teary eyed.

Matt [0:04:30]: You know, I second Grab, like, you know, I kinda look at Salesman I was like, car salesman are, like, you know, selling doorknob knobs or nines or something.

Matt [0:04:37]: And I was just so upset because I was like, that's my allotted.

Matt [0:04:40]: Right?

Matt [0:04:40]: And then growing up, and then I grew up in My you're all selling.

Matt [0:04:43]: Honey.

Matt [0:04:43]: What you're a producer, in regardless of industry, you're in service relationship, you know, whether you're in an executive your own your own business.

Matt [0:04:50]: You're just selling it all times and so.

Matt [0:04:52]: I'm grateful that that was the calling card early on.

Matt [0:04:54]: I, you know, came back around to it in college.

Callan [0:04:58]: I find it so interesting, and I think anybody that starts to do sales at a really high level, especially if they're selling big ticket accounts and things like that.

Callan [0:05:04]: You realize that all the stereotypes of sales is the exact opposite, and it's the people that really could be consultants in that industry are by far the best because they're getting people to think about things in a way that they didn't realize before.

Callan [0:05:19]: So you're just solving really big problems and the closes a natural byproduct of that.

Callan [0:05:24]: But that doesn't make a good movie on what it is.

Callan [0:05:27]: But I totally agree.

Callan [0:05:28]: It's very different.

Callan [0:05:29]: And I I screwed it up bad early, because I tried to be, like, boiler room wolf walk.

Callan [0:05:33]: Anything you could think of.

Callan [0:05:34]: Like, that's how I tried and like, got nowhere until I flipped it.

Matt [0:05:38]: Yeah.

Matt [0:05:38]: Well sales that the tough thing is that the word sales is, like, it defines the role internally at a company.

Matt [0:05:44]: Mh.

Matt [0:05:45]: But it shouldn't be the external or that defines the person an actual it, drives their behavior with the role.

Matt [0:05:51]: You know?

Matt [0:05:52]: It's like you're not really trying to sell anyone on anything.

Matt [0:05:54]: You wanna just provide and position your product the right way for somebody who needs it the most, and then it's not even a sale.

Matt [0:06:01]: It just happens.

Callan [0:06:03]: Well, you know, I tell you what's interesting too is, like, I look at your career, and, you, it's funny.

Callan [0:06:08]: You say, like, you kinda fell into this, but clearly, it was a really good fit.

Callan [0:06:11]: You and your partner, Zach top two agents nationally at Liberty Mutual.

Callan [0:06:16]: So that started to work right out of the gate.

Callan [0:06:19]: You founded G&N, G&N became not only one of the fastest growing agencies in the country, but you're also one of the fastest growing businesses on the Inc five thousand.

Callan [0:06:28]: And then you sold G&N to the Hi group, and you just sold a Hill but it really and time.

Callan [0:06:34]: Like, that's when they were on their rise as well.

Callan [0:06:36]: And I know you guys had led for a little bit, all the personal lines on division ford Hill.

Callan [0:06:41]: So had major success within this.

Callan [0:06:45]: You know, one of the things and of that, along that rise, one of the things that I thought was super interesting, and we had talked about it before, and then doing my own research, this bob head campaign, I would love to get into the weeds on.

Callan [0:06:59]: So when I say that, what is kinda like the first thought that you think of when I say the Bob head campaign.

Matt [0:07:05]: Yeah.

Matt [0:07:05]: It's funny.

Matt [0:07:06]: We didn't really have any intention for anyone else to know about it.

Matt [0:07:09]: It wasn't, like, a branding move.

Matt [0:07:10]: It was more of, like, something to get the recipients of the bob heads interested in meeting with us.

Matt [0:07:15]: We're a year end to growing the business.

Matt [0:07:17]: We had no idea where we were doing, but we were throwing everything against the wall and we'd recently seen an office episode of white fruit in his bob head.

Matt [0:07:25]: Yeah.

Matt [0:07:25]: We weren't taking any money at the time.

Matt [0:07:27]: So ten thousand dollar purchase of a hundred bob was a big deal.

Matt [0:07:30]: Yeah.

Matt [0:07:31]: But, you, Some success with realtors and mortgage brokers and attorneys and engaging with them and getting referrals and creating a network, you know, opportunity there.

Matt [0:07:39]: We just decided to go all in in that space, and we researched and found the top producers and those different industries with mortgage and real estate and attorney.

Matt [0:07:48]: And we made them all into Bob bland dump unbeknownst to them.

Matt [0:07:51]: So custom to them.

Matt [0:07:52]: And then we and delivered some of them, and we mailed it out a lot of basically, nice packaging branded to them, what it means to be part of the ball and family and community.

Matt [0:08:02]: And, like, we got two reactions.

Matt [0:08:04]: It was either...

Matt [0:08:05]: This is so weird, but let's meet because they'll don't thank you.

Matt [0:08:08]: And this is the coolest gift I've ever got.

Matt [0:08:09]: I'm gonna put it up, and we even have people who received it.

Matt [0:08:13]: Their kids had broken it, and they reached back to Alec, like I'm so sad.

Matt [0:08:15]: Like, is there any way I can give another one.

Matt [0:08:17]: And so we realized quickly, like, that was an interesting way to get in the door, you know, from a network effect perspective, and create relationships off the bat.

Matt [0:08:24]: But people that probably would have taken a lot longer to say yes to to meet with, and it just generated a lot of momentum and then we just kept on doing it.

Matt [0:08:32]: So over the course of, I had call it seven or eight, nine years.

Matt [0:08:35]: We made thirteen hundred bob heads, you know, and there's probably not a mortgage broker realtor, Massachusetts who, you know, was a heavy producer who didn't have one.

Matt [0:08:43]: It then spawned into, you know, hey.

Matt [0:08:45]: This brand is working.

Matt [0:08:46]: We started consulting across the industry and speaking on different stages, you know, different events started a consulting firm called Bob On.

Matt [0:08:53]: It just naturally morph into vlogging in video series and podcasting and all the other things and kind of drove the brand internally within the industry, which we had never any intent in doing.

Matt [0:09:05]: And, you know, to today, it it really created a tremendous amount of relationships and partnerships and trusted friendships that wouldn't have had otherwise.

Matt [0:09:13]: So it was a good decision.

Callan [0:09:14]: So let's break this one down.

Callan [0:09:16]: You know, as I understand it, you guys were still kind at that.

Callan [0:09:19]: We need to speak to anybody that's got a pulse phase of the business.

Callan [0:09:22]: I'm saying that because that's very much what it was like for me when I was starting.

Callan [0:09:26]: He pivoted pretty early.

Callan [0:09:28]: Was it that you just had a couple of these.

Callan [0:09:30]: Now, of course, this is talking with mortgage origin and loan officers there's a pretty common practice.

Callan [0:09:34]: What was kind of some of those early points were, like, know what?

Callan [0:09:37]: We gotta go all in on this because that's a very scary move to go from friends family just pushing referrals as much as you can in that world versus we're just focusing on home buyers.

Callan [0:09:49]: Home buyers specifically.

Callan [0:09:50]: Not necessarily just homeowners, but home buyers.

Matt [0:09:52]: Yeah.

Matt [0:09:52]: At the time, it wasn't as much of a thing.

Matt [0:09:56]: Like, working with home buyers through their trusted mortgage and loan and real estate agents.

Matt [0:10:02]: Like, now I think I've worn them around the country does it makes sense.

Matt [0:10:05]: Fifteen, twenty years ago, like, it wasn't as much of a thing.

Matt [0:10:08]: At least going all in on it.

Matt [0:10:09]: Yeah.

Matt [0:10:09]: For us, what made us successful.

Matt [0:10:11]: One of the things That made a successful previous to starting your own business was understanding the power of referrals not just from former clients, but when you don't have any former clients, you need to get referrals from centers of influence.

Callan [0:10:25]: Mh.

Matt [0:10:25]: And so when we started our business, we had a lot of centers of influence, that were just across the full gamut, You know, from all different industries from different relationships, not all leads are created equal.

Matt [0:10:35]: Not all of our referrals are created equal.

Matt [0:10:37]: So about a year in and we started do assess.

Matt [0:10:40]: You know, hey.

Matt [0:10:41]: We we get this number of referrals and leads and opportunities.

Matt [0:10:44]: You know, what close we feel like these are better than these, but, like, let's actually look at the numbers and the data.

Matt [0:10:49]: So we did an assessment, and it was very clear.

Matt [0:10:51]: When we got introduced to people were buying property.

Matt [0:10:54]: They needed what we had to offer.

Matt [0:10:56]: It was time based.

Matt [0:10:57]: The closing ratio was much higher.

Matt [0:10:59]: The speed from open to close was a lot quicker.

Matt [0:11:03]: It just made a lot of sense.

Matt [0:11:04]: And so that, well, there's a big enough industry here.

Matt [0:11:06]: We only do x number of closing or, you know, clients are closing a year.

Matt [0:11:11]: We can cross almost every time to other lines of business.

Matt [0:11:14]: Let's just try it.

Matt [0:11:16]: Let's go all in on it.

Matt [0:11:17]: So I think it was enough proof in the relationships that we had.

Matt [0:11:20]: We just needed more of them.

Matt [0:11:22]: So there's is, like a fun marketing event early on that sort of spawned into bigger things.

Matt [0:11:26]: I think that that's really what triggered it.

Callan [0:11:29]: I love that.

Callan [0:11:29]: And so I wanna talk about that kinda like that first push.

Callan [0:11:32]: Before we go there, you hit on something that centers of influence.

Callan [0:11:37]: I learned about centers of influence when I was a captive and I was kinda shocked when I left that world, especially in the insured tech companies I at.

Callan [0:11:47]: Most people...

Callan [0:11:48]: They didn't understand the concept of a C or a center of influence.

Callan [0:11:52]: It it works in any industry out there period?

Callan [0:11:55]: It works.

Callan [0:11:56]: I think especially good for some, but can you walk through what is a center of influence?

Callan [0:12:01]: What's your process for meeting with centers of influence?

Callan [0:12:04]: How do you find more of them?

Callan [0:12:06]: What does that look like?

Matt [0:12:08]: Yeah.

Matt [0:12:08]: Well, I'd like to start from the end.

Matt [0:12:10]: So we had helped probably seventy or eighty insurance agencies, deeper into our career as agency owners, implement systems that really helped them both from an operational standpoint and also some marketing too.

Matt [0:12:23]: And we also start, like, starting with goals.

Matt [0:12:25]: Well, a lot of people don't write down their goals and has specific goals.

Matt [0:12:28]: And then backing into who is gonna be that target client that you're gonna grow with to hit your goals, I think identifying that target profile, a profile that's target clients is extremely important.

Matt [0:12:38]: Because then you can figure out who in their world, whether it's a vendor, or referral partner of theirs, a supplier, a key influential strategic partner, Who in their world could we actually network with that could have the influence and trust of our target client.

Matt [0:12:55]: Enough so that when they make the introduction, it's strong.

Matt [0:12:59]: It's powerful.

Matt [0:12:59]: We already have the vetted trust and the authority is already there.

Matt [0:13:02]: And so that works in any industry.

Matt [0:13:04]: You figure out your target client.

Matt [0:13:06]: If figure out who's gonna be most influential in their world.

Matt [0:13:08]: Right?

Matt [0:13:08]: And then new network and go all into that space.

Matt [0:13:11]: So, like, for a while, we were more into mortgage space in the home buying space than we were insurance agents.

Matt [0:13:18]: And Like, today, you know, when we're helping agencies and we'll get to this layer, but helping insurance agencies actually successfully sell their business.

Matt [0:13:26]: Anyone who's influential in their world, right, from a consultants to vendors to tech software platforms to carriers to anyone who's influential in their space.

Matt [0:13:36]: If they know what we do and how we help and what we do how that...

Matt [0:13:40]: What we do helps them.

Matt [0:13:41]: You, those are the people we wanna connect with and share our story and then try to invest in those relationships.

Matt [0:13:47]: I think that's the key for the centers of influences that you've gotta kinda lead with a give first mentality, but not to your target client to their trusted people.

Callan [0:13:56]: I, a hundred percent agree, and I have found, you know, exactly you said just kind of that give first where When we were focusing on more like early stage shirt techs, We'd had connections with all the Vcs.

Callan [0:14:07]: And when a new insure tech would pop up, was win win because the Insure tech wanted to connect with those Vcs, we'd be able to shoot over a pitch deck if they liked it great, we make the introduction, but we're giving those.

Callan [0:14:18]: So then when something...

Callan [0:14:19]: We're top of mind when something that's a good fit one of their portfolio companies has a challenge, then we get pulled in there.

Callan [0:14:26]: And we do that now with Pe because as we work with some of more of the larger shirt techs, And then the carrier side as well who supports that channel that it is...

Callan [0:14:34]: It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

Callan [0:14:36]: And then you're just making, like, something, again, like simple as the introduction goes a long way for all parties involved.

Callan [0:14:43]: Even if it's like, you can't be focused on, like, what you get out of it in that moment.

Callan [0:14:47]: Mh.

Callan [0:14:48]: Their long term relationships.

Callan [0:14:49]: Have you found that to be the same?

Matt [0:14:51]: Totally.

Matt [0:14:51]: Yeah.

Matt [0:14:52]: It's he played a long game.

Matt [0:14:53]: We're early on in a business in business.

Matt [0:14:56]: It's harder to see that?

Matt [0:14:57]: It's hard to understand.

Matt [0:14:59]: And sometimes you can't even think long game.

Matt [0:15:01]: You have to just think short short sprints and just do whatever it takes.

Matt [0:15:04]: Mh.

Matt [0:15:04]: Eventually, those who I found when big, long term transitioned to long term games with long term people.

Callan [0:15:12]: Yep.

Matt [0:15:12]: And vest in relationships So people who actually enjoy working with, you can get along with, and then you're just the person that they refer when they hear the need that you can offer.

Matt [0:15:22]: Yeah.

Matt [0:15:23]: That you can solve.

Matt [0:15:23]: I mean, I don't wanna overs simplify it, but there's obviously a lot more relationship building.

Matt [0:15:27]: But if people trust you and your word is strong.

Matt [0:15:30]: I mean, they feel like what we have to offer can provide a tremendous amount of value for people that they care about.

Matt [0:15:35]: It's like, that's the game.

Callan [0:15:37]: You know, you talked about this as well on building, like, very big on process building.

Callan [0:15:40]: What does that process look like?

Callan [0:15:43]: Okay.

Callan [0:15:43]: You got a bob head in, send this thing out.

Callan [0:15:45]: What does it go from there?

Matt [0:15:48]: Yeah.

Matt [0:15:48]: So I think a lot of discussions over the years when it comes to written process, focus on, like, service processes and sales quoting processes binding processes, you know, fulfillment, process post sale, service and claims.

Matt [0:16:02]: But no one ever really talks about the importance of a written process that you follow on you're consistent with on the networking side.

Matt [0:16:10]: Maybe on marketing and social media and, you know, some lead gen stuff, but, like, on networking is kinda like, people think of it as, like, a relationship thing and know, you get to know with many people and they like you, but I think to be able to scale that and do it really, really well.

Matt [0:16:23]: You have a systematic process that you following.

Matt [0:16:26]: First it was identification of who we wanted to actually send a bob hit too.

Matt [0:16:30]: Eventually, it morph into any time we've received a referral from a new potential Cli or new potential loan officer realtor.

Matt [0:16:38]: That very first referral, we make them into a ball hand and we had a process to deliver that.

Matt [0:16:43]: It was a thank you, regardless of whether the client closed or not.

Matt [0:16:46]: Was a thank you and to reward that behavior than we cared about.

Matt [0:16:49]: But backing up, like, once they received the Bob head, there was a follow up conversation, obviously.

Matt [0:16:55]: Like, we would reach out, hey, did you get it?

Matt [0:16:57]: You know, where is it now?

Matt [0:16:58]: Like, we'd ask for the opportunity to meet that.

Matt [0:17:01]: And we'd sit down and then we had a written process to follow those meetings, and I've talked about this for years and other space is what questions we were gonna ask and lead with to make sure that we have the amount of data to be able to pull from later on.

Matt [0:17:14]: To this decide, like, this is what success looks to them.

Matt [0:17:17]: This is how we can provide value to that in long term.

Matt [0:17:20]: You can't get that unless you're asking questions a little time.

Matt [0:17:23]: So now there'll be follow ups sequences after that, you know, touch porn, text messages, calls, you know, future coffees, and then you know, obviously, sending books and other things that really meant a lot to that them.

Matt [0:17:34]: And if someone you you met with shared that they needed help with goal setting and they didn't have goals or something like that, but they've been successful, you know, despite it.

Matt [0:17:42]: You know, we get them a book on goal setting, and maybe it's something that worked really well for us.

Matt [0:17:46]: We helped our referral partners with social media and lead generation.

Matt [0:17:50]: We help them with team building exercises and core value creation.

Matt [0:17:54]: And we help them with weekly structured meetings and goal setting.

Matt [0:17:56]: All the things that make a business strong, and we invested in those relationships.

Matt [0:18:00]: And so all that came from a written process that we thought through what's the most effective way to create a relationship that's gonna feed and res you from us for a long time.

Callan [0:18:12]: I love all of that.

Callan [0:18:13]: You know, one of the most interesting things about that is, all of that holds up today, and I'd be curious if you're seeing the same thing.

Callan [0:18:20]: And I would make the argument too, that scales all the way up.

Callan [0:18:24]: Doesn't it matter how big the company it is.

Callan [0:18:26]: It's just different.

Callan [0:18:26]: Right?

Callan [0:18:27]: You're sending it to maybe a couple of people instead of one person.

Callan [0:18:30]: But why I was so interested in this one in particular is.

Callan [0:18:34]: I think with how much Ai is automating communication right now.

Callan [0:18:39]: And people are getting bogged down...

Callan [0:18:40]: Like, I don't check.

Callan [0:18:41]: I mean, my phones don't do not disturb all day.

Callan [0:18:43]: Fortunately, I've got an assistant that goes through all of my email because the spam emails out of control.

Callan [0:18:47]: But these types of things are the ones that are standing out.

Callan [0:18:51]: You know, you do a bob head was...

Callan [0:18:53]: I bet that same exact campaign would still work today.

Callan [0:18:56]: I'd be curious to get your opinion on that.

Matt [0:18:58]: No.

Matt [0:18:58]: I hope you're right because it may be coming that.

Matt [0:19:01]: It's just funny that you asked that question earlier about ball because it's something like, for years I didn't think about.

Matt [0:19:06]: And then most recently, we wanted to do something special for our former clients.

Matt [0:19:11]: Mh.

Matt [0:19:11]: And, you know, fit through a lot of different options.

Matt [0:19:13]: Something that's custom to them, something that's special these are agency owners who had hired us to help them sell their business As a sell side adviser.

Matt [0:19:22]: And so spent a lot of time with them, and invested a, you know a lot of effort and created really strong relationships.

Matt [0:19:27]: So you can't just get it them cha key.

Matt [0:19:30]: You know, You you can get them a closing gift which know, hopefully, is custom and thoughtful.

Matt [0:19:34]: But wanted to say something, like, like, really being thankful and we're thinking of you when you matter to us.

Matt [0:19:39]: And whether or not you can ever refer us in the future, like, that doesn't matter, but we want you to know that we're thinking of you, and this is a token of our appreciation.

Matt [0:19:47]: So we ended up decided to bring the ball ahead campaign back, and we just produced sixty three this week.

Matt [0:19:53]: They're all gonna be packaged together, a accompanied by a little, like, speaker and it's branded and maybe a little video brochure, you know, with a quick little video customized to them, and I think that's something that worked in the past and I I think it's gonna work again.

Matt [0:20:07]: Just to say thank you, and a really an interesting creative way.

Matt [0:20:09]: I mean a recipient of that if I open that box.

Matt [0:20:12]: I'm never gonna forget it.

Callan [0:20:14]: Nope.

Callan [0:20:14]: I personally agree with that.

Callan [0:20:16]: And I am actually super curious to hear the feedback that you get from that.

Callan [0:20:20]: Because...

Callan [0:20:20]: Again, I think like, you have to stand out right now.

Callan [0:20:23]: It's too easy, like, The cost to create super quality content, the cost to create super high quality emails, everything is as low as across the board for absolutely everybody.

Callan [0:20:35]: It's pretty much free for anybody.

Callan [0:20:37]: So, like, you have to do something that's gonna stand out.

Callan [0:20:40]: Because people are...

Callan [0:20:41]: Most people, I think this is just my personal opinion are going to take the path of least resistance, and they're not gonna put that time and effort and energy into doing that.

Callan [0:20:52]: And then probably not gonna put the time and energy and effort it takes to create their ideal customer profile like you said.

Callan [0:20:57]: But I think if you do those things, I don't care what industry you're in I know in this industry it works very well.

Callan [0:21:03]: Like you're just gonna stand out for sure.

Matt [0:21:07]: Especially, they mean a lot of it also relates to that what your product or service is.

Matt [0:21:11]: And in our particular case, like, it's a really big decision to sell your business.

Matt [0:21:16]: It's a huge impact.

Matt [0:21:17]: Both financially, emotionally it is to be legacy for a lot of people.

Matt [0:21:21]: There's a lot of identity connection there.

Matt [0:21:23]: There's a lot of family connection.

Matt [0:21:24]: There's a lot of small businesses across the country that have third forced generation.

Matt [0:21:29]: There's so...

Matt [0:21:29]: There's a a lot there.

Matt [0:21:30]: And I think you need to do stuff that does stand out and also this rings true to kinda who you are and how you operate and a simple email and the phone call.

Matt [0:21:40]: People get hound every day you.

Matt [0:21:42]: As you said, text emails and phone calls all day long.

Matt [0:21:45]: I've just sort of become to it.

Matt [0:21:47]: It's hard for me to react anything if someone's reaching out that way.

Matt [0:21:50]: So I you do have to put in that extra five percent, ten percent that no one else is.

Callan [0:21:55]: I one hundred percent agreement.

Callan [0:21:56]: And if that's not, enough motivation.

Callan [0:21:59]: Some of the results that I've seen, I'd be curious to hear if there's anything else that you wanna add or whatever that might be.

Callan [0:22:04]: A hundred plus referral partners sending five hundred warm leads per month, seventy five percent closing ratio, ninety six percent retention rate, over ten thousand clients writing a hundred and twenty five to hundred fifty thousand of new premium every week, and seven percent of all new home sales in Massachusetts.

Callan [0:22:20]: Pretty incredible results for a bob head campaign on a ten thousand dollar budget going all in quickly.

Callan [0:22:28]: That's incredible.

Matt [0:22:31]: Yeah.

Matt [0:22:31]: Well, thanks.

Matt [0:22:31]: Those are members that, like blast from the past numbers.

Matt [0:22:33]: I haven't thought about those figures in a while, but I like the fact that you brought them up because it means they're out there.

Matt [0:22:39]: Still, you know, it's something we were proud of you know, for a long time with the ability to go all in on your niche and what that can actually grow to is pretty cool to see and be part of.

Callan [0:22:49]: You talked on a briefly on what you're doing now.

Callan [0:22:51]: You know, you see a lot of transactions.

Callan [0:22:53]: Right?

Callan [0:22:54]: You see the valuations.

Callan [0:22:55]: You see the ones that are get really high valuations?

Callan [0:22:57]: You see the ones that don't get as high valuations.

Callan [0:23:00]: How are the top performers positioning themselves right now?

Callan [0:23:04]: What are the top performers doing that the average is not and, hate asking three questions at once.

Callan [0:23:10]: But how would you position yourself right now, if you were still back in there, you're about to make this Bob head decision tears into the business, how would you position yourself right now to be in this top performers list?

Matt [0:23:23]: Yeah.

Matt [0:23:23]: So, I mean, from a lens of creating the most amount of asset value for your agency, when and if you decide to transact and sell your business because that's a huge win, and it's huge if.

Matt [0:23:35]: You know, a lot of people don't have the aspiration to sell their business and totally cool.

Matt [0:23:39]: A lot people wanna transition that to the next generation.

Matt [0:23:42]: Awesome.

Matt [0:23:42]: I love that.

Matt [0:23:43]: Someone wanna move to their employees.

Matt [0:23:44]: For those who don't have an intention of being in the industry forever and or transitioning in terminal you're to family members, and they do wanna look for an outside partnership.

Matt [0:23:55]: Whether it's private that equity be backed or publicly traded companies or strategic or someone regional or bank or local or, competitor, it doesn't matter.

Matt [0:24:04]: If they ever wanna partner externally there are a few factors that drive value.

Matt [0:24:09]: And as a agency owner growing the business, it's hard to say, like, hey, you should pivot hard on your book of business.

Matt [0:24:15]: Although your book of business does drive value, like, if You look at three agencies next to it one another.

Matt [0:24:22]: One offers, you know, non standard personal lines, auto and they're flat in terms of growth, and I anywhere near the value that an agency that's got a good fifty fifty personal lines, commercial lines, vanilla, you know, mix that's growing at five or seven percent.

Matt [0:24:37]: And that agency is not gonna get the same value that a mid market commercial agency growing at twenty percent year over year is gonna get.

Matt [0:24:43]: So, like it's hard though to say to somebody, hey, if you're doing well and you're growing right now in whatever book of business niche you're growing, you should pivot because you're gonna get a slightly higher multiple.

Matt [0:24:53]: That's silly.

Matt [0:24:54]: Like whatever is working in terms of your growth strategy, keep doing it because pace of growth and scale matter way more than your book of business makeup.

Matt [0:25:01]: I think that those two factors, like the size of your agency and the pace of growth that you're growing at, they matter a ton, and a buyer wants to buy a business and partner with you, if they know you're gonna continue to they have to really high degree of confidence that you're gonna continue to grow post close.

Matt [0:25:17]: They don't wanna buy an asset that's just gonna be stagnant or shrink.

Matt [0:25:21]: So whether that means acquiring smaller agencies and just growing through inorganic means along with your growth strategy, whether that means hiring outside producers, you know, and growing through maybe a less profitable means of growth, but still a really good organic growth or beef up your inside sales team and doing a really good job generating opportunities and driving done to the house.

Matt [0:25:43]: That in combination with an inorganic strategy, that's gonna drive the most amount of value for an agency, more than anything else.

Matt [0:25:50]: And I did that I'm would say, to my own self, fifteen years ago continued to do what's working in terms of your growth strategy.

Matt [0:25:57]: And just really be mindful of your pace of growth and your scale.

Matt [0:26:01]: And your leadership team.

Matt [0:26:03]: Agencies that are...

Matt [0:26:04]: And this is no different in any industry agencies, specifically, I think there's a lot of them out there where the principal, you know, whether it's first generation or third or fourth, wears a lot of hats, they're the producer.

Matt [0:26:16]: They're also...

Matt [0:26:16]: The main producer are also, you know, head of service and carrier relationships and everything.

Matt [0:26:21]: And that asset, if you just look at it individually is not as safe from a buyer's perspective, and then an agency that, you know, has a full leadership team, three, four, five people that wear different paths and are responsible for different things.

Matt [0:26:36]: Because if that business owner principle is removed from the equation, whether they leave a year after a sale, three years, five years, knowing that the business is in good hands and is being shepherd by a team it's been historically really productive and successful at doing so is extremely valuable.

Matt [0:26:53]: So I think that's one area where agency owners can say, I'm gonna grow as fast as I can.

Matt [0:26:58]: I'm gonna try to, inorganic, you know, inorganic producers, inside, etcetera, but I'm also gonna build out my leadership team because that's a valuable thing.

Matt [0:27:06]: Any buyer of any business well once really good talent.

Matt [0:27:09]: Out the care, we're entering in this huge Ai phase is and people are talking about disruption and displacement of jobs etcetera sec.

Matt [0:27:16]: At the end of the day, you need good talent.

Matt [0:27:18]: You need people who are going to deliver results and are goal oriented and have good moral and epics and buying a business that have those people is so much more valuable than at business is operating on, you know, high margin with no one...

Matt [0:27:32]: No one really responsible, you know?

Matt [0:27:34]: Yeah.

Matt [0:27:35]: So long winded way of saying that scale pace of growth and leadership matters.

Callan [0:27:42]: I mean, is it fair to blow that down to predictability?

Callan [0:27:44]: Like, they need to be confident, like, that if you've got a three, five year forecast that it's gonna be fairly predictable you're going to hit that based off of the infrastructure that you've laid out.

Callan [0:27:55]: I think you also brought up a great example of...

Callan [0:27:58]: Okay.

Callan [0:27:58]: Let's say you're writing non standard.

Callan [0:28:00]: Yes.

Callan [0:28:01]: Right?

Callan [0:28:01]: It's also probably an example of if you're going to where people are not going.

Callan [0:28:05]: And if you've got a better machine and mouse trap to write non standard business and to...

Callan [0:28:11]: I mean, we all know if non standard business, oftentimes non standard can churn every thirty to sixty days.

Callan [0:28:15]: But if you're able to keep that on there a month longer because of the systems that you have in place.

Callan [0:28:21]: Somebody's gonna be really interested in that.

Callan [0:28:23]: Could be a non standard carrier, but that predictability piece would it feels like it comes down to, but I don't wanna make an assumption to put words in your mouth.

Callan [0:28:29]: Is that?

Matt [0:28:30]: Yeah.

Matt [0:28:30]: Created for predictability matters, you know, more than it.

Matt [0:28:33]: And so if you have historical results that are strong.

Matt [0:28:36]: You've got a leadership team that has been with you for a while.

Matt [0:28:39]: You've got you're growing above average pace.

Matt [0:28:42]: You've got some decent scale.

Matt [0:28:44]: It doesn't matter what I'd rather that with a non standard, and we have clients that are non standard agencies that are predictable that have great margins that have a sticky sticky clientele that have scale and that have a lot of locations, and they're gonna garner way more from a value perspective than a, Vanilla agency that's stale and not growing at all and, you know, hit plateau years ago.

Matt [0:29:06]: So I don't think book a business or, you know, makeup should be the main focus for anyone who's wrong an agency see if it's working well.

Matt [0:29:12]: He's just double down on it.

Callan [0:29:14]: I've bet a lot of people are pretty happy to hear that because it feel like it's easy.

Callan [0:29:18]: I mean, even, like, in the conversation that you and I I have before this.

Callan [0:29:21]: I've even saying it's like, man, if I was doing this today, Would just go for middle market commercial.

Callan [0:29:25]: And your exact words were That's easier said than done.

Callan [0:29:28]: I like, you're right Making that?

Matt [0:29:33]: Yeah.

Matt [0:29:33]: If you could pick if you'd wave of a magic wand and say, hey.

Matt [0:29:37]: I can do anything in the world.

Matt [0:29:38]: I'm gonna be successful at it, what should I do?

Matt [0:29:41]: Yeah.

Matt [0:29:41]: Like, selling mid market, you know, million dollar premium accounts to large businesses with high margins and growth profile it's super attractive, that's what you do.

Matt [0:29:50]: But if that's not where you come from, that's not what you know and don't wanna have to wait ten years to try to pivot completely into that space.

Matt [0:29:58]: Like, just keep doing what you're doing really well.

Matt [0:30:00]: And if you're getting a seven or eight x multiple on your margin, but you're able to grow four five six times as much in that same time period.

Matt [0:30:08]: Who cares?

Matt [0:30:09]: Versus the person that gets up twelve or thirteen next their pro form a Eb margin and they're one third the size of you.

Matt [0:30:15]: Who cares?

Matt [0:30:16]: You know, You're profitable and you're growing fast, you how to continue to do that.

Matt [0:30:20]: You're gonna garner great results.

Matt [0:30:21]: Especially now nowadays it is, I think growth is the most attractive piece because a lot of the large buyers have had a harder time growing the softening market.

Matt [0:30:30]: When they're that big.

Matt [0:30:32]: You know, that big and retention is what retention is, and you're not seeing the premium growth year over year that you did in hard market, organic growth matters a ton.

Matt [0:30:41]: So if you've proven that you can do that in any niche, someone's gonna really pay a premium for that.

Callan [0:30:47]: That's a great point.

Callan [0:30:48]: Alright, are you seeing that because organic growth really is not centralized in the really large brokers because so many of them been bolt on acquisitions?

Matt [0:30:57]: I think that there are definitely larger public and private backed agencies that are exceeding average rates in terms of pace of growth year over year.

Matt [0:31:06]: Those that aren't just don't have a production capacity that is necessary.

Matt [0:31:11]: If you're six million or seven hundred million in revenue, you need to bring on hundreds of producers a year.

Matt [0:31:17]: The math just doesn't work if you don't.

Matt [0:31:20]: And I don't think that a lot of the businesses are set up to do that.

Matt [0:31:23]: And so and in a hardening market, it's easier to continue to grow organically because you're just, you know you're running with inflation and your premiums are growing up them.

Matt [0:31:31]: But if your premiums are stagnant or growing at two to three percent, you need a huge production force.

Matt [0:31:37]: And I think a lot of the agencies out there that are that size, they don't have enough producers on the team.

Matt [0:31:42]: So if they are looking to acquire an agency that has production capacity in the show and history of growing fast, they'll over pay for that.

Matt [0:31:50]: They'll pay out size multiples from that type of business because I know that after the acquisition only is super acc.

Callan [0:31:57]: Okay.

Callan [0:31:57]: This might be a bit of a random question, but it...

Callan [0:32:00]: It's potentially on par with this.

Callan [0:32:01]: Right?

Callan [0:32:01]: Let's say, obviously, we know that through a family member, son daughter, whatever that might be Niece nephew is is super super common.

Callan [0:32:11]: That person takes over that book.

Callan [0:32:14]: Let's say that book was steady, but not really growing very much.

Callan [0:32:18]: And this person comes in young, hungry looking to jump start this thing?

Callan [0:32:25]: What is the first piece of advice that you give them?

Matt [0:32:29]: I think you're doing a two things.

Matt [0:32:31]: Doing an assessment of what's worked and what hasn't worked is the first step know, if you haven't been in the driver's seat, you haven't been able to make all the decisions?

Matt [0:32:41]: It's really good to get a first level of assessment of, like, what has worked, what should we continue to invest in and double down on and what things should we just avoid and we should just kick a can on?

Matt [0:32:50]: Second thing is I think in any small business of any size, and wants to grow north of ten percent year over year.

Matt [0:32:57]: Right?

Matt [0:32:57]: You're gonna have fires.

Matt [0:32:59]: You're gonna have problems.

Matt [0:33:00]: You're gonna have issues that pop up.

Matt [0:33:02]: It's figured out which ones are we okay, letting burn and which ones will we never let burn.

Matt [0:33:08]: And I think I've always looked at it as top of the funnel opportunities, Lead gen, business development, networking marketing sales.

Matt [0:33:16]: I'll never let those areas burn.

Matt [0:33:18]: And will always provide enough attention and be very intentional about our strategy instead of stay ahead of the need, not to say that service and processing and claim management and all the other things aren't as important in terms of a day to day function because a lot of agency is ninety nine percent of their revenue comes from existing clients.

Matt [0:33:38]: But I just...

Matt [0:33:40]: I don't think I ever want to see the problem on the score board as we don't have enough sales, we're shrinking because we're not producing enough.

Matt [0:33:48]: Does that feels like, you know, stag nation, and I don't think that from a value perspective, that's something anyone wants.

Matt [0:33:54]: So, yeah, I would say for a new person moving into that chair, pushing your foot hard down on the growth pedal, but not worrying as much about some of the other problems that might exist from that.

Matt [0:34:04]: It's worked for me.

Callan [0:34:06]: Yeah.

Callan [0:34:06]: No.

Callan [0:34:06]: It makes sense.

Callan [0:34:07]: Like, start with what you got.

Callan [0:34:09]: Instead of trying to just start this from scratch.

Callan [0:34:11]: Because you already do have a pretty big asset that you've inherited or bought or whatever that might be.

Callan [0:34:15]: But one quick area I wanna touch on is, you know, I always kinda like to see where have you seen, you know, carriers are obviously a huge part of this whole eco...

Callan [0:34:25]: I mean, the carriers writing the insurance.

Callan [0:34:28]: Right?

Callan [0:34:28]: They're manufacturing the product.

Callan [0:34:29]: And, you know, for the things that you've talked about, what's the opportunity?

Callan [0:34:35]: Like, where have you seen carriers really help support this growth process?

Matt [0:34:41]: When we were growing the agency, I think one area that we were put off on or buy, but was the insurance companies that came in on a quarterly basis with a packet that was printed out that said, how much business we had given them and where our premium levels were and what their target lines of business that they're were looking to grow in was.

Matt [0:35:03]: Because couple of reasons.

Matt [0:35:05]: One, we already had all that information.

Matt [0:35:07]: And two, that time was really, really valuable and we set to, like, we could have been an email?

Matt [0:35:11]: So carriers that are looking to invest in the relationship and come in the door questioning.

Matt [0:35:18]: What does that look like?

Matt [0:35:20]: Not so dissimilar to going into a center of influence meeting and saying, what do you need?

Matt [0:35:25]: What pain points do you have?

Matt [0:35:27]: What would you do more of today if you had more time and bandwidth?

Matt [0:35:30]: What would you kill tomorrow if you could?

Matt [0:35:33]: Always you outsource what problems are you having in terms of team and Hr.

Matt [0:35:37]: Those questions, whether you can answer them and help the person or not should be asked.

Matt [0:35:41]: And if carriers entertainment ask those questions, we would actually get into like, an intimate conversation about what's working what's not working, And then they can actually go back and say, well, we can't help with those things.

Matt [0:35:51]: But maybe this one item that they mentioned, we can actually work on that.

Matt [0:35:54]: So I at an elementary level going in, questioning what can we do outside of just, like, helping you with your under underwriting relationship and providing education on your rates and product lines?

Matt [0:36:04]: Like, what can we actually do to help your business?

Matt [0:36:07]: That question should be asked nonstop.

Matt [0:36:09]: In terms of what I've seen work really well is carriers who are looking to invest in agencies that are growing and working with them?

Matt [0:36:17]: Because it's it gotta be a two way street.

Matt [0:36:19]: Can't offer the same thing for every single agency out there.

Matt [0:36:22]: Someone's shrinking with you.

Matt [0:36:23]: You're not gonna be as you know, investing in their relationship.

Callan [0:36:26]: Sure.

Matt [0:36:26]: But periods to come to the table and say, hey, what's gonna help you grow more?

Matt [0:36:29]: Well, we need more producers, but Producers are expensive.

Matt [0:36:32]: We bring on four this year and grow more with you, but we can't afford that.

Matt [0:36:36]: Really work so much with our lines of credit and our banks and our current cash flow Yada Cool.

Matt [0:36:40]: Maybe we could talking about a producer funding program.

Matt [0:36:42]: There are some forgiveness if you grow x amount.

Matt [0:36:45]: Or, hey, there's a couple agencies local to us that we'd love to kind of tuck in and acquire, but we don't have the capital and banks aren't allowing us for whatever reason.

Matt [0:36:54]: Maybe that's something that you guys could help us with the finances as those acquisitions.

Matt [0:36:58]: And maybe there's a forgiveness piece if we roll a certain amount of business with you.

Matt [0:37:01]: Those are the creative business building relationships that, like, would go along way.

Matt [0:37:05]: You can't do that with everyone.

Matt [0:37:07]: But someone who's loyal investing in you, Like, that's something that I think would be interesting.

Callan [0:37:12]: Do you see that happening right now?

Matt [0:37:14]: I'm not in it.

Matt [0:37:15]: So I can't say that I'm firsthand saying that, but I have hurt from agency owner friends as well as people in the industry that Mh.

Matt [0:37:24]: That does exist from multiple carriers nationally and some regional.

Matt [0:37:28]: They have the ability to be flexible.

Matt [0:37:30]: They have the ability to invest in relationships.

Matt [0:37:33]: And it might not be like a program that they're putting a Pdf out and saying, hey, this is something that we do.

Matt [0:37:38]: But I think that Carriers wanna grow, and it's gonna help them grow and they're confident in their relationship and the ability for that agency to pay them back through premium growth.

Matt [0:37:47]: It's profitable, why wouldn't they?

Callan [0:37:50]: I tend to agree, and I think what are the bigger misconceptions is that carriers are just kind of focus purely, cares have put millions of dollars into supporting the agency channels, especially if that's one of their primary channels.

Callan [0:38:04]: And I think if you ask them, they would say, absolutely.

Callan [0:38:08]: We wanna put this where it's going to have the highest Roi, which is going to be the biggest win win.

Callan [0:38:13]: And I think asking more of those questions and getting more of those answers I think are critical.

Callan [0:38:19]: So I just find that...

Callan [0:38:20]: That's super interesting.

Callan [0:38:21]: Matt, Last question that I have for you to kind of bring this to a wrap is if you could have a conversation with the map that was just starting out in this industry.

Callan [0:38:35]: What what that conversation be?

Callan [0:38:37]: What advice would you go?

Matt [0:38:39]: That's a great question.

Matt [0:38:39]: I think that twofold, first, the thing that I'm...

Matt [0:38:46]: I think has worked the most for me.

Matt [0:38:48]: The best for me has been just being honest and truthful and intentional about being kind to everyone that I've connected with and trying to help other people with what their problems and challenges are to continue to do that because I think long term brand reputation is so so meaningful now, and it continues to benefit me.

Matt [0:39:12]: I never did that to create the results I'm creating now.

Matt [0:39:16]: I just did it because it was the right thing to do.

Matt [0:39:17]: So not taking shortcuts.

Matt [0:39:19]: You know, ends don't justify the means or ways to win with people without breaking your moral or ethical codes.

Matt [0:39:27]: And those are things that I would definitely reinforce, and I'm glad I didn't.

Matt [0:39:32]: I'm glad took bad advice in essence.

Matt [0:39:34]: I think the other piece of it would be to continue to risk intelligently and be bold with your decisions.

Matt [0:39:41]: Mh.

Matt [0:39:42]: I think a lot of the things that I've done and worked, there's no reason why if I were more bold and even more aggressive, they wouldn't well caveat to that is that I have an absolute wonderful relationship with my kids?

Matt [0:39:55]: And there is a constant balance of, Yeah.

Matt [0:39:59]: Risk reward in terms of, like, how much do I need to expand professionally to fill that cup while also not sacrificing the moments that matter most of my life, versus with my wife and my kids.

Matt [0:40:10]: And I think I've been able to accomplish that and kinda find a really nice balance, achieving that, like, billionaire status isn't important to me.

Matt [0:40:18]: It's to achieve and maximize results professionally, have a ton of fun doing what I'm doing, help us many people as possible, work with amazing people on challenges that are worth my time, that will create great financial outcomes allows me to have a meaningful relationship and have a ton of hours and intentional time with my family.

Callan [0:40:39]: Honestly, so much of what you just said goes back to what you said earlier.

Callan [0:40:43]: Right?

Callan [0:40:43]: Long term games, long term people.

Callan [0:40:46]: Is kind of amazing when you do all those things, how much that comes around.

Callan [0:40:50]: I think that's such good advice for sure.

Callan [0:40:52]: Matt, this has been awesome.

Callan [0:40:55]: I knew I could enjoy this.

Callan [0:40:57]: I definitely did.

Callan [0:40:58]: I appreciate coming on today.

Matt [0:40:59]: Yeah.

Matt [0:40:59]: Thanks for

Matt [0:41:00]: It's been fun.

Callan [0:41:02]: Hundred percent.