How Jeff Snyder Built Matic to 750K Leads Through Loan Servicing Partnerships

Jeff [0:00:00]: Divisions to simplify the world of insurance for consumers and make it as easy to attach homeowners insurance to a mortgage as it is to get trip protection from delta.

Jeff [0:00:08]: How can we just simplify that experience.

Jeff [0:00:11]: How do we connect with all of the right carriers and getting the product availability in all fifty states, which is a challenge.

Callan [0:00:19]: Welcome to the Insurance Growth Lab.

Callan [0:00:21]: Where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the assurance industry.

Callan [0:00:27]: I´m Callan Harrington founder Flashgrowth and in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers and shirt tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale a channel or solve a specific growth challenge.

Callan [0:00:44]: It's no fluff, just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:48]: Jeff, I'm excited for this, man.

Callan [0:00:55]: I wanted to get you on the show for a long time.

Callan [0:00:58]: And where I really wanna start this out is, tell me about being unqualified.

Jeff [0:01:02]: So out of

Jeff [0:01:05]: college, I joined an It staffing company, an It services company.

Jeff [0:01:08]: Was in sales for them for three years.

Jeff [0:01:11]: Move way up.

Jeff [0:01:12]: Really enjoyed it, Good company culture, learned a lot there, and just got promoted to leading a national account pretty early on I was making good money.

Callan [0:01:21]: So how far college were you?

Jeff [0:01:22]: Three years.

Jeff [0:01:22]: Okay.

Jeff [0:01:23]: Three years out of college, And through someone in my network, I get introduced to a guy an investment group that are starting a digital insurance agency, and they're looking for a day one operator someone to come in.

Jeff [0:01:35]: They wanted the fresh perspective, which is one of the questions I asked of why are you entertaining me as an.

Jeff [0:01:40]: I haven't done this.

Jeff [0:01:41]: And at all.

Jeff [0:01:42]: And so I took a lunch and and ultimately, I joined, but if you think about it at the time, I'm three years out of college.

Jeff [0:01:49]: I've never hired anyone.

Jeff [0:01:51]: I've never fired anyone.

Jeff [0:01:53]: I've never led an inside sales team I've never run a budget.

Jeff [0:01:56]: Never run a P and L.

Jeff [0:01:57]: I've never been put in a situation where I have to build from scratch or doing anything like that about, you know, at the first job out of college, there was a wheel you'd follow the sales process, and and here I am having, like, try to figure all of that out.

Jeff [0:02:09]: And so we job about unqualified.

Jeff [0:02:11]: I don't know if I could be more unqualified for that.

Jeff [0:02:14]: And it's interestingly, the reflection moment of why to take that job, why do it.

Jeff [0:02:20]: If you're not qualified.

Jeff [0:02:21]: I think those jobs just don't come around all that often.

Jeff [0:02:23]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:02:24]: And mh.

Jeff [0:02:25]: For whatever reason that my head, and maybe through some mentorship of just asking questions about should I do this or not.

Jeff [0:02:32]: I think that that job is so rare to find where someone will trust you to be a day one employee?

Jeff [0:02:39]: And I think it's worth it if you can do that and know that if you really need to fall back, you can get another corporate sales job.

Jeff [0:02:45]: So that's how I got into it.

Jeff [0:02:48]: And, you know, for me, if I think about the key things that got me through it, and I use this today all the time when hiring and talent development and just thinking about how to get through un qualified situations.

Jeff [0:03:01]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:03:01]: Work ethic, it's attitude, its coach ability.

Jeff [0:03:04]: And so for me, going into that situation, I knew those things I could control.

Jeff [0:03:08]: And I could be the first one in last one out.

Jeff [0:03:11]: I could study.

Jeff [0:03:12]: I could learn on the weekends.

Jeff [0:03:13]: I could do whatever I could to just literally out work anyone to make it the success.

Jeff [0:03:19]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:03:19]: I came in with a positive attitude.

Jeff [0:03:21]: I was passionate.

Jeff [0:03:22]: I'm called on Opt today by my team.

Jeff [0:03:25]: Mh.

Jeff [0:03:25]: And part of that is just I wanna have fun.

Jeff [0:03:28]: I wanna create a good vibe and not letting small things get away and, like, not knowing how to do it.

Jeff [0:03:35]: And then the last one the most important one me, which is coach ability.

Jeff [0:03:37]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:03:37]: And just being humble to the fact that everything is a learned behavior in this world or at least the things that we put ourselves through.

Jeff [0:03:44]: Sure?

Jeff [0:03:45]: So, you know, I always had mentorship.

Jeff [0:03:47]: I mean, you've been a mentor for me.

Jeff [0:03:49]: I've asked you a ton of questions and for me that was key of, you know, there's take it till you make it which I think is good in some ways of, like, being confident?

Callan [0:03:57]: Sure.

Jeff [0:03:58]: Absolutely.

Jeff [0:03:58]: But in this one, you know, you don't wanna a fake not knowing how to do certain.

Jeff [0:04:02]: So I just got mentors all over the place that were my guide to help figure out.

Jeff [0:04:06]: How to get through them?

Callan [0:04:08]: You know what's it's one of the interesting things.

Callan [0:04:09]: I think that you mentioned.

Callan [0:04:10]: And I wholeheartedly agree with this is Jason Le had a you had a tweet a long time ago that said something along the lines of sometimes in your career, and typically only happens once.

Callan [0:04:23]: Somebody, for some reason see something inside you and, like, you get a chance that you probably just shouldn't have gotten.

Callan [0:04:32]: Yeah.

Callan [0:04:32]: When you look at, like, on paper, There's million other people that are probably better on paper, probably earned that maybe more through their experience to be able to get it, but they take that shot on you.

Callan [0:04:43]: And I love what you just said because I hardly agree.

Callan [0:04:45]: What he said was, You just do whatever the hell you need to do to make that happen.

Callan [0:04:49]: Yeah.

Callan [0:04:50]: Prove that person right.

Callan [0:04:51]: Whatever you need to do to prove that right, when you get that chance take it.

Callan [0:04:55]: And I've personally lived exactly by that as well.

Callan [0:04:58]: That's so funny that you say that, And I totally agree.

Callan [0:05:00]: I totally agree.

Callan [0:05:02]: Now you did it again.

Callan [0:05:03]: That did it again.

Callan [0:05:05]: So when you joined Matt, you were also the first employee.

Callan [0:05:08]: Correct?

Jeff [0:05:08]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:05:08]: Yeah And so I like that position.

Callan [0:05:14]: Yeah.

Callan [0:05:14]: Why is it?

Callan [0:05:15]: What is it that treats you so much about that spot?

Jeff [0:05:19]: It's an an interesting question.

Jeff [0:05:20]: I think for me one it's...

Jeff [0:05:22]: It's like entrepreneurial like, adjacent?

Jeff [0:05:25]: Sure.

Jeff [0:05:26]: Like super entrepreneurial.

Jeff [0:05:27]: Your day one.

Jeff [0:05:28]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:05:28]: But I'm piggyback off someone else's idea, they're funding.

Jeff [0:05:31]: I'm not risking all of that personally.

Jeff [0:05:33]: And so it's, like one level down, and I don't know I just I love the autonomy.

Jeff [0:05:38]: I love building.

Jeff [0:05:38]: I love not knowing what's next, and it just happened that way.

Jeff [0:05:43]: You know?

Jeff [0:05:44]: I was at the first agency for three and a half years, built a nice team and loved it, and just by happens since met one of the c cofounder of Mat, at a carrier conference a small carrier conference and we shared a uber, and we shared Uber on the way back and on the way back.

Jeff [0:06:00]: He was pitching me on coming over, and they were just getting going, and I fell in love with their vision.

Jeff [0:06:05]: Fell in love with what they're were trying to accomplish and It just felt like a bigger opportunity with being Vc backed and, you know, what they wanted to accomplish was very grand.

Jeff [0:06:16]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:06:17]: And it was a big leap of faith, and it took a lot of conversation back and forth to to get to that Spot, but I'm obviously happy to do.

Callan [0:06:26]: No.

Callan [0:06:26]: A hundred percent.

Callan [0:06:27]: So let's talk about that a little bit.

Callan [0:06:28]: Right?

Callan [0:06:28]: You guys have been incredibly successful.

Callan [0:06:30]: Raised over fifty million dollars.

Callan [0:06:32]: You've got over four hundred employees.

Callan [0:06:35]: You're bringing in seven hundred and fifty thousand leads a year.

Callan [0:06:39]: I'm gonna say that up one more time.

Callan [0:06:40]: Seven hundred and fifty thousand leads a year.

Callan [0:06:44]: That's a wild number.

Callan [0:06:46]: Yeah.

Callan [0:06:47]: And, you know, this is one of the things I think that I have the utmost respect for what you've done is you're the first employee and you're still the president of the company.

Callan [0:06:58]: That's really impressive.

Callan [0:06:59]: Right?

Callan [0:07:00]: Because typically, and I've been part of a number of these scaling startups.

Callan [0:07:03]: But, you know, you've got people that are really good fit at specific stages, most can't evolve the way that you did to where you're getting here.

Callan [0:07:12]: I wanna circle back to that.

Callan [0:07:13]: But before I go there, let's talk about this seven hundred fifty thousand.

Callan [0:07:17]: This is the area I'd love to kinda get in into weeds and you guys have really dominated the b to b to c on that loan servicing side.

Callan [0:07:26]: I know you do some origin...

Callan [0:07:27]: And things like that as well, but one of the things I always thought was really unique was the fact that you did start on the loan servicing side.

Callan [0:07:35]: Can you break that down?

Callan [0:07:37]: I think the beauty is on this audience, most people will know the difference between origin imagination because that's where a lot of the traditional agents are getting a lot of their leads from loan officers and things like that.

Callan [0:07:46]: But not as many are probably getting them from the loan servicing side.

Callan [0:07:51]: Why was that an opportunity?

Jeff [0:07:54]: I think it's worth going just a little back of, like, definitely we started.

Jeff [0:07:57]: So Matic work for automatic insurance.

Callan [0:08:00]: Never knew that.

Callan [0:08:00]: Yep.

Callan [0:08:01]: That was never tied to Ben Maddock´s name?

Jeff [0:08:03]: In fact, it's horrible because every time we're in a meeting, he has to address the fact that he can't spell and, the company not named after him.

Callan [0:08:10]: Never do

Jeff [0:08:11]: that Never.

Jeff [0:08:11]: It's

Callan [0:08:12]: Never knew that.

Jeff [0:08:13]: And they went to a third party too.

Jeff [0:08:14]: So Ben and the cofounder and they came back and said Matt, and they liked it, and then, you know, it's like, Are we really gonna name the company Maddock.

Jeff [0:08:22]: And your last name is Maddock spelled differently.

Jeff [0:08:23]: And so I'm short for automatic, and the whole concept was born out of the problem in the mortgage closing.

Jeff [0:08:30]: Mh.

Jeff [0:08:31]: And then, I'll get the the servicing side, but vision to simplify the world of insurance for consumers and make it as easy to attach homeowners insurance to a mortgage as it is to get trip protection from delta.

Callan [0:08:43]: Sure.

Callan [0:08:43]: Turns

Jeff [0:08:45]: out it's not that easy.

Jeff [0:08:45]: And and we've...

Jeff [0:08:48]: And but that's been the guiding spirit for us the entire time of how can we just simplify that experience.

Jeff [0:08:54]: How do we connect with all of the right carriers.

Jeff [0:08:55]: How do we get our slowest carrier?

Jeff [0:08:58]: Because we're only as fast as or slow carrier.

Jeff [0:09:00]: Sure.

Jeff [0:09:00]: That's the challenge with technology.

Jeff [0:09:01]: Is that we can build all of our own tech, but we still need to rely on getting all of the access from the carrier.

Jeff [0:09:08]: Yep.

Jeff [0:09:08]: And getting the product availability in all fifty states, which is a challenge.

Jeff [0:09:11]: And so that's what we've been striving for and have built the best home insurance platform, I think in the market today.

Jeff [0:09:18]: But on the mortgage origin side, where there's a clear problem, customers need to get homeowners insurance close.

Jeff [0:09:24]: Still very passionate about that.

Jeff [0:09:25]: It's a very distributed and locally sold product Yeah.

Callan [0:09:30]: Typically, local agent is working with

Jeff [0:09:31]: still in that ecosystem.

Jeff [0:09:32]: It's the realtor refers to loan officer loan officer refers down and and it's just, you know, that whole bottom up strategy.

Jeff [0:09:38]: You can't just...

Jeff [0:09:39]: It's way harder to get an enterprise partnership.

Jeff [0:09:41]: And trickle that down.

Jeff [0:09:42]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:09:43]: We typically say the tail wag, the dog in the sense that the loan officer is operating as an independent Yep.

Jeff [0:09:49]: Franchise or at least, you know, owner operator.

Jeff [0:09:52]: Yep.

Jeff [0:09:53]: And it's hard to push that down.

Jeff [0:09:55]: Enterprise wide, so you have to go distribute didn't need have to go out to the loan office, which is just a tougher scale, and there's only four to six million loans, new home loans each year, and there's sixty five million plus outstanding mortgages.

Jeff [0:10:07]: So that's the area we started to guide towards.

Jeff [0:10:10]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:10:11]: Was there's so much immense data within that mortgage servicing platform that they have on customers and simplifying the world of insurance to us means leveraging technology to and power a better customer experience and down to the agency and being able to provide quotes and be able to provide real time access to rates and coverage and advice and then either be able to bind online or bind with an agent, and we just started to identify this very large population of customers that was not being served.

Jeff [0:10:46]: There's no...

Jeff [0:10:47]: We're essentially inventing this embedded insurance base for mortgage servicing.

Jeff [0:10:51]: We weren't taking over something.

Callan [0:10:54]: Well, it makes sense because anyway anybody it's Bought a home.

Callan [0:10:57]: Has probably got that surprise letter in the mail that said, oh, the person that you've been working with that you build a relationship with, well, they're no longer who you're gonna be working with.

Callan [0:11:06]: It's now x y z company.

Callan [0:11:07]: P c Bank or they're mister Cooper, who there's tons that do it.

Callan [0:11:12]: But so how, you know, it's probably a question I I've never even asked, but just...

Callan [0:11:17]: How are you getting their attention.

Callan [0:11:19]: Right?

Callan [0:11:19]: Because they're not necessarily.

Callan [0:11:20]: I mean, they could shop at ref files and stuff like that, but what are some of those trigger events that you're working with a loan servicer on that get somebody to think, you know what?

Callan [0:11:29]: Maybe I should be taking a look at this.

Jeff [0:11:32]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:11:32]: So we've had to build a very omni channel experience.

Jeff [0:11:34]: Mh.

Jeff [0:11:35]: And work with the partner on the other side in a highly complex regulated environment, getting them to participate in our marketing strategies together as a partnership.

Jeff [0:11:47]: One of the hardest things we you do with B b marketing is I can spend a long time court you as a partner, get a assigned contract but nothing comes with it from either side.

Callan [0:11:59]: Really this old time when it comes to channel partnerships.

Jeff [0:12:01]: And so you have to activate it, and you have to be good at activating it.

Jeff [0:12:05]: And so we've built, you know, different customer segmentation and leveraging technology to, essentially preschool customers in advanced leveraging data that they have on these customers, which is very powerful data.

Jeff [0:12:17]: Mh.

Jeff [0:12:17]: They're tracking your homeowners insurance today.

Jeff [0:12:19]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:12:19]: And so we can harness that to figure out what's the right segment to go after.

Jeff [0:12:23]: And, you know, there's obvious ones.

Jeff [0:12:25]: I know when your escrow bills go up because of homeowners insurance.

Jeff [0:12:28]: And then we can integrate into all the different channels.

Jeff [0:12:31]: And if you call into the call center, they'll flag it, you get an email.

Jeff [0:12:37]: If you log in to your portal, It's all connected in the same journey.

Jeff [0:12:41]: And so that's when we work best is when our partner operations team and marketing teams are integrated wholeheartedly into the partnership, and that's not an easy execution point, but it's...

Jeff [0:12:53]: That's where we found the most success.

Callan [0:12:55]: How do you do that?

Callan [0:12:55]: What does that look like?

Callan [0:12:56]: Right?

Callan [0:12:57]: Is this something that you have to get buy in before they're a customer?

Callan [0:13:00]: Is it almost kind of a disc qualification process and know who you decide to bring on as a result of that?

Jeff [0:13:05]: It's a lengthy sales cycle for a reason and part of it is that you're going in and inventing something for them, which I do think is a challenge.

Jeff [0:13:13]: Sure?

Jeff [0:13:14]: Absolutely.

Callan [0:13:15]: Inventing meeting, like, they weren't doing this previously.

Callan [0:13:16]: Yeah.

Callan [0:13:18]: You're convincing...

Jeff [0:13:19]: They're you're convincing them that it's a problem.

Jeff [0:13:20]: And once they...

Jeff [0:13:21]: And and usually, they recognize it's a problem and an opportunity, and then it's just a challenge to figure out where to place it within new organization.

Jeff [0:13:27]: Yep.

Jeff [0:13:28]: Oh, it sounds great.

Callan [0:13:29]: Well like, who owns it?

Callan [0:13:30]: You don't necessarily have a Vp special project.

Jeff [0:13:33]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:13:33]: There's no line item today or even, you know, where they have this or in procurement or in in legal and compliance.

Jeff [0:13:38]: It's all new.

Jeff [0:13:39]: Mh.

Jeff [0:13:39]: And so we we navigate that space.

Jeff [0:13:41]: And then we try to just go extremely deep from a relationship perspective on our organization and get many people involved executives head of all departments involved with all the departments over on the other side and make it that expectation upfront in the sales cycle that in order to make this work.

Jeff [0:13:58]: Here's how it happens.

Jeff [0:13:59]: We build the performer a and then explain how the performer comes to life essentially.

Jeff [0:14:05]: Mh.

Jeff [0:14:06]: By saying this is what it requires, and then we outline that in the agreement of this is what your duties are.

Jeff [0:14:10]: This is what our duties are, and here's how it comes together.

Jeff [0:14:12]: Including weekly meetings, quarterly business reviews, certain Sla and turnaround times on marketing content and things like that.

Jeff [0:14:21]: And every partner is slightly different, but the ones that operate the best have someone who is in charge at an executive leadership level.

Jeff [0:14:28]: It wants it to be a success.

Jeff [0:14:30]: And the way that we generally do these partnerships is the partner generates revenue on a revenue share basis.

Jeff [0:14:41]: So when we have success.

Jeff [0:14:42]: Mh.

Jeff [0:14:43]: We're not buying leads from them or doing something like that.

Jeff [0:14:45]: So we are building an annuity.

Jeff [0:14:47]: We're building a book of business with them together, and they're sharing in some of the revenue and it is great for us as far as our scalability of not having to pay as much to acquire customer initially, we're paying ongoing for that customer, but it also holds us accountable together to the lead quality.

Jeff [0:15:04]: And to driving the right behaviors, and it holds us accountable.

Jeff [0:15:09]: I mean, some of the toughest times honestly of thinking about, like, when we were under the most pressure when the partner was aggressively trying to understand why conversion was down two percent or five percent or contact rate was down yesterday versus the day before.

Jeff [0:15:24]: And if you're on the other side, you're the partner, you're a little bit helpless to our agency into our marketing machine and all that.

Jeff [0:15:31]: And so those are the questions you ask when we're sending you daily reporting files.

Jeff [0:15:34]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:15:35]: And so our team has to figure out the answers and to get better and to explain that, you know, their world in mortgage is slightly different than our world insurance, and especially the last couple years.

Jeff [0:15:45]: I mean, it's it was challenged in the carrier market just to find the right product and availability.

Jeff [0:15:49]: But, like, the partner cares about our success.

Jeff [0:15:52]: As much as we care about our success, which creates a unique angle.

Callan [0:15:56]: You know, it's interesting because they probably saw that as ton of opportunity.

Callan [0:16:00]: Meaning, like, you can see the numbers What I'm hearing here you say is you're deeply integrated within their So I know this is like, the big technology play of Matt just in general.

Callan [0:16:08]: But, like, you're deeply involved in their systems.

Callan [0:16:09]: You can see when their insurance goes up because you've got a line of sight into the escrow accounts.

Callan [0:16:15]: So Did you find that when they kept saying it's like, hey, because I'm assuming there was a pretty big bump across the board of we're getting all of these accounts that have insurance go up.

Callan [0:16:25]: You guys should just go to town.

Callan [0:16:27]: Do you have to set expectations on that?

Callan [0:16:29]: Or did they know?

Jeff [0:16:31]: Did who know?

Callan [0:16:32]: Did the loan servicing companies know, like, insurance is going up across the board?

Callan [0:16:36]: It's not necessarily that all of these policies were just not originally good policies for them to be in.

Jeff [0:16:44]: So every time we talk to the partner we talk about every single conversation and interaction we have with them has to be value added experience.

Jeff [0:16:50]: Mh.

Jeff [0:16:50]: Whether we sell them or not.

Jeff [0:16:52]: And that's actually a big hurdle to get over.

Callan [0:16:54]: What's that mean?

Callan [0:16:55]: Can you break that?

Jeff [0:16:55]: So I think as a homeowner.

Jeff [0:16:58]: If my mortgage lender, my mortgage servicer has my back, and they've partnered with the company, they can scan my insurance every single year accurately and identify whether I have the right coverage, at the right price with the right carrier based on where I live, and showed me in a digital experience without me having to put in one piece of information, that's a value add.

Jeff [0:17:20]: Then if I take it a step further, and I wanna buy it, be able to purchase digitally and apply it back to my mortgage, save money that way or talk to an adviser.

Jeff [0:17:28]: And if that adviser walks me through my situation is now it's a high payoff situation where we don't have to just routinely collect forty five minutes worth of information from you.

Jeff [0:17:38]: Sure.

Jeff [0:17:38]: We know you.

Jeff [0:17:39]: We're piggyback off the relationship that you already have with your mortgage company.

Jeff [0:17:43]: And so we focus on extremely high value conversations of advising you on what you should or shouldn't do and giving you the tools to make a decision.

Callan [0:17:51]: Mh.

Jeff [0:17:52]: And so we're not gonna win on every single one, and you're gonna come back to us the next year.

Callan [0:17:57]: Because you've already shown that you've already demonstrated value without asking for anything in return.

Callan [0:18:02]: That's right.

Callan [0:18:03]: And so when we bring this up again, You know, maybe you were okay with your agent at that time.

Jeff [0:18:09]: That's right.

Callan [0:18:09]: And if that agent's doing a good job, Odds are, they're gonna get ahead

Jeff [0:18:12]: of it, and they're gonna

Callan [0:18:13]: be doing the same thing.

Callan [0:18:13]: They're not gonna do it exactly how you are, but they're doing it through review.

Callan [0:18:16]: Maybe they build a really good relationship they're doing a a good job with their customers.

Callan [0:18:20]: But if they're not touching that customer.

Callan [0:18:22]: You're providing more value than what they're currently getting.

Callan [0:18:25]: And the next time that comes around, maybe they gave them the benefit of a doubt that first year, but it happened again, you're there.

Callan [0:18:32]: Yeah.

Callan [0:18:32]: Now you're going to convert...

Jeff [0:18:35]: If we look at it, like, there's only one bite of the apple, it's not gonna work long term.

Jeff [0:18:38]: Right.

Jeff [0:18:38]: And so we look at this, like...

Jeff [0:18:40]: And if the mortgage servicer looks at that, then they'll start to wear over it anyways.

Jeff [0:18:44]: They'll say, okay.

Jeff [0:18:44]: Well, you took a bite.

Jeff [0:18:46]: Your conversion is x, and it needs to be wide.

Jeff [0:18:48]: And it's very like, conversion focus, which it should be That's how you generate revenue.

Jeff [0:18:52]: But insurance is different.

Jeff [0:18:55]: Mh.

Jeff [0:18:55]: And I think people wanna be heard.

Jeff [0:18:58]: I think people wanna learn and understand, and especially on homeowners insurance, what I've learned as compared to auto is it's was way less understood.

Jeff [0:19:06]: Because it's attached to the mortgage, the general person, bought it when they buy a house, they said it they forget it.

Jeff [0:19:12]: It goes up fifty percent over five to ten years.

Jeff [0:19:15]: They don't pay attention because it's escrow in.

Jeff [0:19:17]: Mh.

Jeff [0:19:18]: And their bills are just more expensive taxes is going up.

Jeff [0:19:20]: So of the Pi, the taxes and insurance is rising pretty rapidly right now.

Jeff [0:19:24]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:19:25]: And people need to start paying attention.

Jeff [0:19:26]: And if they at least have an outlet of understanding why their home price and why their home insurance in that part of California is more expensive and we can show that to them in a digital way and actually educate them.

Jeff [0:19:39]: Mh.

Jeff [0:19:39]: Then at some point, you know, they'll come back around.

Jeff [0:19:42]: We'll have the right price at the right time.

Callan [0:19:44]: Yeah.

Callan [0:19:44]: Not rush reciprocity.

Callan [0:19:45]: Like rush proxy rule.

Callan [0:19:46]: Like, you're giving them something, and you're not asking for anything.

Callan [0:19:49]: And so this continues to come around.

Callan [0:19:52]: They'll feel obligated to nothing else.

Callan [0:19:53]: Probably give it a look.

Jeff [0:19:54]: And more importantly, from our positioning within the mortgage servicing ecosystem, all of the top mortgage partners that we've worked with have run studies to figure out if they work with Bad at all, especially if they buy a policy, how much more likely are they able to refinance or recapture that business?

Jeff [0:20:11]: And it's all unanimous that it's a multiple times easier to recapture their business and that customer, if they have automatic policy holder attack.

Callan [0:20:21]: You to break that down a little bit

Jeff [0:20:22]: But one of the, you know, we think about the mortgage servicing ecosystem as Whoever I'm paying my mortgage to, I really can't leave unless I pay off the mortgage or refinance.

Callan [0:20:30]: Yep.

Jeff [0:20:30]: Yep.

Jeff [0:20:30]: And so in a world where rates are really high, it's unlikely that I'll leave my mortgage servicer.

Jeff [0:20:37]: If rates dip down and it makes sense for me to ref refinance out, they want me to ref refinance back with them.

Jeff [0:20:42]: Yep.

Jeff [0:20:42]: And so your multiple percentages more likely to refinance and stay with that mortgage servicer if you have a mat policy attached.

Jeff [0:20:51]: Because if they're adding value through their experience, then customer will ultimately go back to them.

Jeff [0:20:58]: That's when they that decision, which is more...

Jeff [0:21:00]: That's their core business.

Jeff [0:21:01]: So that's been an extra lever for us to say, hey, the revenue is interesting, but we're helping you at your core business.

Jeff [0:21:07]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:21:08]: Retain customer.

Callan [0:21:09]: Yeah.

Callan [0:21:09]: Well, that's what's actually gonna get them to do it in a major way.

Jeff [0:21:13]: When those studies are run, and there's a big uptick in the percentage of recapture retention.

Jeff [0:21:18]: The amount of focus we get from the Cmo, the publicly traded mortgage company increases exponentially.

Callan [0:21:26]: Oh, I I can only...

Callan [0:21:26]: I have to imagine.

Callan [0:21:27]: Because now you're actually affecting the overall...

Callan [0:21:30]: You become part of a initiative.

Callan [0:21:31]: You're not a...

Callan [0:21:32]: This is interesting.

Callan [0:21:34]: We like this.

Callan [0:21:34]: We should do this.

Callan [0:21:35]: There's no reason for us not to do this.

Callan [0:21:37]: Percent.

Callan [0:21:37]: To a...

Callan [0:21:38]: This is critical to our retention, which is you move that, I obviously was gonna call it recapture.

Callan [0:21:43]: I don't know exactly what

Jeff [0:21:45]: it is.

Jeff [0:21:45]: Yeah.

Callan [0:21:45]: Is...

Callan [0:21:45]: Okay.

Callan [0:21:46]: So you move that recapture rate.

Callan [0:21:48]: You know, it's one are the most interesting things?

Callan [0:21:50]: Is that I didn't understand it when I was younger in enterprise sales since I got older.

Callan [0:21:55]: I realized like, if you don't impact a key initiative.

Callan [0:21:59]: You're not getting a million plus dollar deal.

Callan [0:22:01]: Mh.

Callan [0:22:01]: It has to be a key initiative.

Callan [0:22:03]: It has to be important to somebody that has executive...

Callan [0:22:06]: I'm was just gonna say executive power.

Callan [0:22:08]: Somebody that's on...

Callan [0:22:09]: If it's something that is ag educating somebody at the executive level enough that they're gonna make this a key initiative, And you can solve that.

Callan [0:22:17]: That's how you get those those mega deals.

Callan [0:22:19]: And you guys found that to be the case.

Jeff [0:22:20]: Hundred percent.

Jeff [0:22:21]: Yeah.

Callan [0:22:22]: Yeah.

Callan [0:22:22]: It's so interesting.

Jeff [0:22:23]: And you can tell by the partner itself of, like, who comes to the the Qb, the business review.

Jeff [0:22:29]: Mh.

Jeff [0:22:29]: Of how successful the partnership is.

Jeff [0:22:31]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:22:31]: And it just comes down to engagement.

Jeff [0:22:34]: And again, if you're in these partnerships and there's a pretty complex ecosystem to generate a lead, Like, you pass us data.

Jeff [0:22:42]: We have to be inside the marketing channel that channel has to become a lead, then our entire agency runs their own process at that point right to sell the insurance policy.

Jeff [0:22:50]: If you don't figure out a way to get in all of those channels and then get them in the right way in the best practices, you'll just...

Jeff [0:22:57]: You'll fall flat.

Callan [0:22:59]: Let's talk about that.

Callan [0:23:00]: I'd love to talk about a big partner that you lost?

Callan [0:23:03]: Do you don't have to give any names or anything like that, but why'd did you lose them?

Callan [0:23:07]: Would you learn from it?

Callan [0:23:08]: What changes did you make as a result of that?

Jeff [0:23:11]: That's a good question.

Jeff [0:23:11]: So we it was a good partner.

Jeff [0:23:14]: You know, Mat is a startup, and, you know, while we've built a good footing in this space and we're...

Jeff [0:23:21]: The dominant leaders in this space that we're talking about today.

Jeff [0:23:24]: No question.

Jeff [0:23:25]: Yep.

Jeff [0:23:25]: There are big big carriers out there.

Jeff [0:23:27]: And if you own mortgage company and you're a CEO and you have friends with these carriers?

Jeff [0:23:32]: You start to ask yourself, hey.

Jeff [0:23:34]: Why am I partnered with the smaller startup up?

Jeff [0:23:37]: Like, why aren't we partnered with a big carrier?

Callan [0:23:39]: Nationwide is an?

Callan [0:23:40]: Yeah.

Callan [0:23:41]: An example Directly to it and...

Callan [0:23:43]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:23:44]: Absolutely.

Jeff [0:23:44]: And so the team that we were working with did not want that to happen because they were happy with the partnership and all of that, and we were actually killing it.

Jeff [0:23:51]: We're doing really good job.

Jeff [0:23:52]: But we eventually threw some turnover at that partner.

Jeff [0:23:56]: We lost relationships.

Jeff [0:23:57]: And like, that relationship capital was gone.

Jeff [0:24:00]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:24:01]: And the only thing left was the person that all along felt like they should work with a big name carrier.

Jeff [0:24:06]: And so it was a test to leave and go figure it out with said carrier.

Jeff [0:24:14]: There was also...

Jeff [0:24:15]: I believe one of the concepts was maybe a reciprocal marketing experience.

Jeff [0:24:21]: Mh.

Jeff [0:24:21]: Where they'd be able to market to some of those policy holders at the carrier.

Jeff [0:24:25]: At the moment rates went up.

Callan [0:24:28]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:24:28]: Rates went up and the carrier market crashed.

Callan [0:24:30]: Mh.

Jeff [0:24:31]: And single carrier in a good markets, not the best option.

Callan [0:24:35]: Really tough.

Jeff [0:24:36]: Single market and a bad carrier really, really hard.

Jeff [0:24:38]: Yep.

Jeff [0:24:38]: And so it failed.

Jeff [0:24:40]: It did not work.

Jeff [0:24:42]: It shut down.

Jeff [0:24:43]: And today there isn't no partnership and we're trying to get back.

Callan [0:24:46]: What's the reasoning for them not coming back.

Jeff [0:24:49]: Just a fact Now it's...

Jeff [0:24:50]: You know, again, it's relationships It's, oh, tell me about, like, oh, this person's gone.

Jeff [0:24:55]: This person's gone.

Jeff [0:24:56]: Yep.

Jeff [0:24:56]: Yep.

Jeff [0:24:57]: Tell me about, like, what you used to do here and who used to work with?

Jeff [0:25:00]: It's that type of thing.

Callan [0:25:01]: So let's talk about that.

Callan [0:25:02]: What was some of the learnings from losing that?

Jeff [0:25:05]: One main one is how vulnerable partnerships can be so true.

Jeff [0:25:09]: And I think another one is just like the resilience of our team to just figure it out and, like, roll with the punches.

Jeff [0:25:16]: Like, of the three things, the work ethic added coach ability.

Jeff [0:25:19]: Like, that's, like the attitude and the culture of the team to be like, hey, we got this.

Jeff [0:25:22]: Like, we're not gonna really I mean it was a big portion of our business, not more than twenty twenty five percent, but a big portion of our business, and I think we didn't even adjust our forecast.

Jeff [0:25:30]: That's incredible.

Jeff [0:25:31]: Like, I think we just figured it out, hey, we have the agents, we have the people we have the process.

Jeff [0:25:35]: Like, whatever things we were thinking about trying.

Jeff [0:25:38]: Let's just do them.

Jeff [0:25:39]: Yep.

Jeff [0:25:39]: Like, whatever ideas, like, let's just do them.

Jeff [0:25:42]: And I think some of those things are you can shake you for a couple weeks, but you realize you're like, it's fine.

Jeff [0:25:47]: Yes.

Jeff [0:25:48]: That's vulnerable We need to make sure that we have strong connections with all the partnerships, but the same time, like, we have people.

Jeff [0:25:55]: We have good relationships elsewhere.

Jeff [0:25:57]: Like, let's make the most of it.

Jeff [0:25:58]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:25:58]: And then every other partner rose.

Callan [0:26:00]: You know, it's so funny.

Callan [0:26:00]: Like, I know that feeling.

Callan [0:26:02]: Back in the day we had a big carrier that was a huge part of our business.

Callan [0:26:05]: Yeah.

Callan [0:26:06]: There was turnover.

Callan [0:26:06]: All of our main point of contacts were gone.

Callan [0:26:09]: We got new ones and the new ones, they just weren't as...

Callan [0:26:13]: And not that I think that they actually dislike the program.

Callan [0:26:16]: I really don't think that they dislike the engagement that we were running by any means.

Callan [0:26:20]: So it's just they didn't have any personal connection to it.

Callan [0:26:24]: Yeah.

Callan [0:26:24]: And when they looked at the different initiatives as they're going into a new role for them to kinda come in and really put their stamp on it and execute on their vision, it's either you could pick up the previous people's vision or you could pick up on yours, If you didn't build that relationship, why wouldn't they?

Callan [0:26:41]: I don't fault them for trying that whatever that vision is.

Callan [0:26:44]: But at the same time, I learned an important lesson at that point is, like, I don't care how close to your relationships are, Yes.

Callan [0:26:54]: That matters.

Callan [0:26:55]: You have to.

Callan [0:26:55]: That's table stakes.

Callan [0:26:56]: You have to do that.

Callan [0:26:57]: But you need to go wide and you need to go deep.

Callan [0:27:01]: You need to go up.

Callan [0:27:02]: You need to go down.

Callan [0:27:02]: You to the left You need to go right.

Callan [0:27:04]: Because you don't have any idea who's gonna come into that position when there's turnover.

Callan [0:27:08]: Literally, like,

Jeff [0:27:10]: after that, created a three by three grid for every partner.

Callan [0:27:13]: Got it.

Jeff [0:27:13]: Of, you know, we need to have three people at Mat, No three different layers.

Jeff [0:27:17]: Deep at the other company and that's probably bigger than that at this point.

Jeff [0:27:20]: But if you look at the ones that you have...

Jeff [0:27:23]: Sometimes it's, like, your excuse is, like the partner won't let you, like, the other person's a Gatekeeper, and they're like, hey, my job is to be the quarterback and you know, Like, you have to just figure it out.

Jeff [0:27:32]: Because at that point, like, if that quarterback leaves.

Jeff [0:27:35]: Then you have, like, no influence.

Jeff [0:27:38]: Nothing.

Jeff [0:27:38]: And if you need influence.

Jeff [0:27:40]: Now it's another thing if you have, like, five hundred partners that are all equal, Then it's run completely different.

Jeff [0:27:46]: But if you have weight at the top?

Jeff [0:27:47]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:27:48]: And, you know, you just have to figure out a way to, like, go heavy on the partnership side and I mean, that's a fun part of the job to be honest with you, like, just being able to build relationships and key spots.

Jeff [0:28:01]: Both on the carrier side and the partners that we're talking about because we can do seven hundred and fifty thousand leads, but if we don't have a product to sell the same thing on the carrier side.

Jeff [0:28:10]: Right.

Jeff [0:28:11]: When the carrier markets go down, like those relationships matter.

Callan [0:28:14]: So true.

Callan [0:28:15]: I love that three by three by the way.

Callan [0:28:17]: That is there's such a good idea.

Callan [0:28:18]: And you already talked about, you brought in so many different people.

Callan [0:28:21]: So like, nobody's completely, you know, walled off from this, but that's gonna be a lot.

Callan [0:28:26]: More difficult.

Callan [0:28:27]: So that's so interesting to make so much more sense.

Callan [0:28:29]: Right?

Callan [0:28:30]: Like, how you got to seven hundred fifty thousand leads a year, you built really deep partnerships.

Callan [0:28:35]: You've built this machine of best practices that you're getting contractually put down.

Callan [0:28:41]: Yeah.

Callan [0:28:41]: And you now can objectively prove that you can impact their core business in a significant way.

Callan [0:28:50]: Like, for a partnership because, know, I've said it on this show a million times.

Callan [0:28:54]: Anytime time I've got somebody that works with partner.

Callan [0:28:55]: We're, like, in a partnership model, I love because so many of who are jade by it because exactly you just said you signed the deal, and then everyone's pumped.

Callan [0:29:03]: Yeah.

Callan [0:29:04]: And you're like, alright, we're gonna make a lot of money together and then nothing.

Callan [0:29:07]: Nothing maybe a couple policies or...

Jeff [0:29:11]: Oh, we've had some really impressive logos that have done nothing.

Jeff [0:29:13]: I believe it.

Jeff [0:29:14]: And it just works out like that.

Jeff [0:29:15]: And sometimes you like spend two years in a sales cycle, you launched the partner and then they get acquired.

Jeff [0:29:21]: And so it's just like...

Jeff [0:29:24]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:29:26]: That unfortunately happens more than you think.

Jeff [0:29:28]: Sometimes it works in your advantage We're a partner that wasn't that big.

Jeff [0:29:31]: Gets acquired by a bigger partner and then they just absorbed the...

Callan [0:29:34]: And their bought.

Jeff [0:29:35]: And they're bought in.

Callan [0:29:36]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:29:36]: And they're like, hey, this is cool.

Jeff [0:29:37]: I'm glad you guys do this.

Callan [0:29:38]: That's awesome.

Callan [0:29:38]: I...

Jeff [0:29:39]: You know, partnership four and you're like, I didn't do much for that, but we executed, and then you know, some combination of execution and luck.

Jeff [0:29:45]: Right?

Jeff [0:29:46]: Like, it's, like...

Jeff [0:29:46]: And then there's some that don't go away, and it's, like, that kinda of sucks.

Jeff [0:29:49]: And you just have to figure it out.

Jeff [0:29:50]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:29:50]: I love that.

Callan [0:29:52]: I wanna shift gears a little bit, and I wanna talk about scale.

Callan [0:29:55]: Right?

Callan [0:29:56]: And we've talked about this kinda throughout this and this journey on, you know, your core way that you guys bring in business.

Callan [0:30:03]: You know, in some of our conversations and one of the things I really liked was you were talking about, and we hit on this in the beginning where he said I wanna circle back to you evolved through these stages, The company evolved and you were able to evolve with that company?

Callan [0:30:17]: And you're have four hundred employees now.

Callan [0:30:19]: How do you see those distinct stages that got to hear?

Jeff [0:30:23]: It's a very good point on holding the position.

Jeff [0:30:26]: I haven't talked about this that openly, but I've reflected on a lot that, like, I always knew that there was an opportunity for me not to live up to the next level.

Jeff [0:30:36]: Mh.

Jeff [0:30:36]: And every day or week month or quarter or whatever you wanted to think about trying to figure out how do you evolve your skill set for the next phase.

Jeff [0:30:44]: Mh.

Jeff [0:30:44]: And I was opened about it actually with our CEO, Ben of just being vulnerable in saying, like, I don't know if I could do this if we had a hundred more people.

Jeff [0:30:56]: What do I need to do to get there?

Jeff [0:30:58]: Like, what should I be working on?

Jeff [0:31:00]: And again, it goes back to that coaching and, like, being open to mentorship and leadership coaching and all that stuff.

Jeff [0:31:04]: And that's been like, a very big driving spirit for me?

Jeff [0:31:09]: Just try to maintain my position and recognize where I'm at or where I'm trying to get, and you asked about the phases.

Jeff [0:31:17]: I mean, for me, there's been three phases, and they're each wildly different.

Jeff [0:31:22]: And I think I've been good at two of the three.

Jeff [0:31:24]: The first phase is that, like, scrappy startup up phase, which you romanticized about today.

Jeff [0:31:31]: And I mean so fun to think back on it.

Jeff [0:31:37]: Like, I mean, I have a three and five year old.

Jeff [0:31:39]: So it's like, looking at baby pictures.

Jeff [0:31:41]: You just like, all you members just how beautiful it was.

Jeff [0:31:44]: And, like, not the chaos.

Callan [0:31:46]: And So real quick about the first office.

Callan [0:31:47]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:31:48]: So our first office was a month to month lease.

Jeff [0:31:50]: Near Franklin University in Columbus.

Jeff [0:31:53]: They were doing a lot of construction around it.

Jeff [0:31:55]: But we got an eight hundred square foot studio apartment, and it had, like the basement glass on the front, and it had, you know, the door with, like, the bars on it and the front of it and I'd say about eighty percent of the time, there was a gentleman down on on his log sleeping outside my door.

Jeff [0:32:12]: So if you wanted, like, come in you kinda, like, nudge him a little bit.

Jeff [0:32:14]: So sad.

Jeff [0:32:16]: And I should be laughing.

Jeff [0:32:18]: A, I get.

Jeff [0:32:19]: And so, you know, like, the scrappy days are, like, one day, you might be, like, putting on headphones, writing, marketing copy for the website.

Jeff [0:32:25]: Mh.

Jeff [0:32:25]: Well, one morning.

Jeff [0:32:26]: Every afternoon, I made three hundred and fifty cold calls every afternoon.

Callan [0:32:31]: And this is before, like, pure auto dial.

Jeff [0:32:34]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:32:34]: I hired one agent, and then we hired another.

Jeff [0:32:36]: There's three of us, and we didn't have partnerships yet.

Jeff [0:32:39]: We had like, one carrier.

Jeff [0:32:40]: We had all these aspirations of building the best tech.

Jeff [0:32:44]: But at the time, like, we had a spreadsheet, and like, that was.

Jeff [0:32:46]: And I just wanted...

Jeff [0:32:46]: Somehow in my heart, I was like, I should be dedicating my time to...

Jeff [0:32:50]: At some point every day to try to sell an insurance policy.

Jeff [0:32:53]: There needs to be a Slack icon that goes sold a policy.

Jeff [0:32:56]: Every day.

Jeff [0:32:57]: Like, we need to show momentum.

Jeff [0:32:58]: Mh.

Jeff [0:32:59]: We have to.

Jeff [0:33:00]: It's actually my reflection back on it.

Jeff [0:33:01]: It's like, you can get caught up and being, like, oh, I'm too good for that Or I shouldn't be doing that Or like, other people should do that.

Jeff [0:33:07]: It's like, no.

Jeff [0:33:07]: You literally need to sell fifteen policies this week and show momentum.

Jeff [0:33:11]: And then sell twenty the next week.

Jeff [0:33:12]: And if we get to thirty we'll do a happier hour.

Jeff [0:33:14]: And, like, literally cold calling age the list mortgage customers.

Jeff [0:33:19]: Not even insurance.

Jeff [0:33:20]: I don't even know why...

Callan [0:33:21]: So it's actually...

Callan [0:33:21]: I would I would actually put that in the cold call category.

Jeff [0:33:24]: Oh, cold call that we have no business calling these people.

Jeff [0:33:26]: Just to be clear.

Jeff [0:33:27]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:33:27]: Like yeah.

Jeff [0:33:27]: They were mortgage customers.

Jeff [0:33:29]: That had bought a home in the last three years.

Jeff [0:33:32]: And we had access to the list, we were able to call it, so that was good enough for us.

Jeff [0:33:37]: And then I would spend a lot of the other time, like doing the other parts of my job, like trying to find carrier partnerships and convincing carriers at that stage.

Jeff [0:33:43]: To a point that scratch agency that not only is gonna sell in fifty states, but requires an Api connection, which is really unheard of at the time.

Jeff [0:33:52]: So built all of our own rating technology.

Jeff [0:33:54]: They're, like, just use easy z links peel reader or anything else.

Jeff [0:33:57]: I'm like, no.

Jeff [0:33:58]: We're building it.

Jeff [0:33:59]: Their long term vision, we were gonna be this embedded partnership, it's gonna work itself out, and convincing them then versus convincing now is obviously different.

Jeff [0:34:07]: And so I finally get one of the big Ia carriers to make a site visit to Columbus.

Jeff [0:34:15]: And we're, again, still in the spot.

Jeff [0:34:18]: Door opens three guys in walk in, three guys in walk out door closes.

Jeff [0:34:23]: And and I get a phone call and pete and pete's like, hey.

Jeff [0:34:28]: I'm trying to find your office.

Jeff [0:34:30]: I can't find it, and I'm like Pete I saw you.

Jeff [0:34:31]: You can come back in.

Jeff [0:34:33]: We can walk to a coffee shop or something.

Jeff [0:34:35]: And Beats at the carrier.

Jeff [0:34:37]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:34:37]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:34:38]: And he tells the story all the time now.

Jeff [0:34:39]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:34:40]: I'll make sure he listens to this.

Jeff [0:34:41]: And you know, it's just so funny.

Jeff [0:34:44]: And now we're one of their top distribution partners and we are who we are, and it's a big laughing matter.

Jeff [0:34:49]: It's like, so funny.

Jeff [0:34:50]: But at the time, it's like, that's where we were, and it was odd, right that, like, we There's an office in the office, I guess.

Jeff [0:34:57]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:34:57]: Like, it's just all open and like walk across the way and, like, get a coffee And like, we'll talk about the vision.

Jeff [0:35:02]: And they gave us an appointment.

Jeff [0:35:03]: And so, you know, those days are really fun.

Jeff [0:35:06]: And then you have to figure.

Jeff [0:35:07]: And then we sign a big mortgage partner, and we had to start scaling.

Jeff [0:35:12]: So we call, like zero to one, one to two, two to three.

Jeff [0:35:15]: Yep.

Jeff [0:35:16]: And so, like, zero to one is, like, that startup page, like, everyone just bought in and, like, you're trying to figure out anything you possibly can.

Jeff [0:35:23]: The next stage gets super awkward.

Jeff [0:35:25]: At least my experience with it is, and maybe I just did it wrong.

Jeff [0:35:27]: Maybe if I did it next time, I would hopefully learn from mistakes, but you're trying to figure out where to be professional and or not to be?

Jeff [0:35:35]: Do we need Hr?

Jeff [0:35:36]: Okay Probably Like, who's it gonna report to?

Jeff [0:35:38]: Okay.

Jeff [0:35:39]: Who should be our head of sales?

Jeff [0:35:40]: Should we hire someone or should we promote from within?

Jeff [0:35:43]: What should we do for this?

Jeff [0:35:45]: For that.

Jeff [0:35:46]: There's all these personnel decisions that you have to make when you're growing up and trying to get to the next phase.

Jeff [0:35:50]: And we certainly made some mistakes along the way that I think set us back, and I think it just comes back to, like, my learning from it is just not having a very, very tight vision and strategy to align with the structure that we needed to identify the people.

Jeff [0:36:08]: Mh.

Jeff [0:36:08]: And more so just said, hey, I think we could really use this.

Jeff [0:36:11]: Like, that makes sense.

Jeff [0:36:12]: Let's go hire this person and starting with that, and then trying to put that person in play, and then giving them autonomy because it's like, hey, It's your show now, like, go figure it out.

Jeff [0:36:21]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:36:21]: And then that being a bad hire and then it reversing course a little bit and you'd start to lose some identity, And there's a lot of learnings in that phase and, you know, you still figure out a way to, like, grow, but that's when you're trying to capture that product market fit and, like, scale it tightly.

Jeff [0:36:37]: Absolutely.

Jeff [0:36:37]: You realize that, like, connecting building a tech company with an operation requires the right people to intersect.

Jeff [0:36:45]: Mh.

Jeff [0:36:45]: And that was our biggest challenge, and, you know, it was a trying time for my peer chief product officer to try to work together because execution is so hard downstream within the agency if you had the wrong leadership in place.

Jeff [0:36:58]: Sure.

Jeff [0:36:58]: So everything we were building wasn't really landing in the right way.

Jeff [0:37:02]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:37:02]: So that phase was challenging.

Jeff [0:37:04]: And then the one we're in now is there's parts for sure that we need to improve, but our leadership group is the best I've ever worked with in my entire life.

Jeff [0:37:13]: Mh.

Jeff [0:37:14]: And I started to adopt a personal philosophy which probably got me to stay at this level.

Jeff [0:37:18]: Which is hiring in people that are significantly better at doing that job that I am.

Jeff [0:37:23]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:37:23]: So I'm not micro managing.

Jeff [0:37:25]: Yep.

Jeff [0:37:25]: And so I'm setting the vision

Callan [0:37:29]: golf strategy.

Callan [0:37:29]: Golfing.

Jeff [0:37:32]: You not supposed to say that?

Jeff [0:37:32]: And these people are great.

Callan [0:37:36]: And so is my hand.

Jeff [0:37:37]: So it's my.

Jeff [0:37:38]: It's gotten better.

Jeff [0:37:39]: And so, like, to see that, Like, that's been the most rewarding part of the entire, like, fourteen year journey of being, like, the day one person is now looking around my leadership team and our collectively leadership team and being, like, this is a group I wanna hang out with.

Jeff [0:37:52]: Is, like, the group I'm inspired to be around.

Jeff [0:37:55]: This is the group that can take us to the next level without changing anything.

Jeff [0:37:59]: Like, we have the team now.

Jeff [0:38:00]: We can get to the next spot.

Jeff [0:38:01]: So it's less chaotic.

Jeff [0:38:02]: It's more fun because execution is fun, and it's like, similar to this...

Jeff [0:38:07]: It's different than that scrappy startup phase, but it feels similar in sense that, like, everyone's wrong in the right direction.

Callan [0:38:13]: You know, I'll give you some interesting feedback.

Callan [0:38:15]: That you probably don't even know.

Callan [0:38:16]: I've heard from multiple people that have been at Mat and are no longer there that have said Jeff in particular was of best leaders I've ever worked around.

Jeff [0:38:27]: I meant

Callan [0:38:28]: to tell you that when we were talking before, but I did not.

Callan [0:38:30]: So it's interesting.

Jeff [0:38:31]: I know I have to find out who.

Callan [0:38:33]: What did you pay?

Callan [0:38:34]: You know, you've been talked a lot about reflecting in on these different things.

Callan [0:38:39]: And I know just in our previous conversations.

Callan [0:38:41]: You're very reflective and something that I personally believe in a lot as well.

Callan [0:38:44]: You know, if you're looking back at this, in each one of these different stages, I'm curious what is something that you had to stop doing as you went into each new stage.

Callan [0:38:55]: You personally.

Jeff [0:38:57]: That's a good question.

Jeff [0:38:58]: So at each stage, what's something that I had to stop doing?

Jeff [0:39:01]: Okay.

Jeff [0:39:01]: Trying to break it down by stage.

Jeff [0:39:03]: At the first stage, I had a big problem being, like this servant leader that wanted to do the...

Jeff [0:39:11]: Something like the Mundane tasks, actually.

Jeff [0:39:13]: I got have trouble for it.

Jeff [0:39:15]: Like, literally, like, our CEO called was like, hey, I heard you into ikea to get desks.

Jeff [0:39:21]: Do that again, you're fired.

Jeff [0:39:23]: And I'm like, Well, you know, the, you know, the team is selling and, like, I'm, like, I just went out.

Jeff [0:39:29]: Like, I got deaths.

Jeff [0:39:30]: I figured like, these, like, hire task grab it do anything but that, Like,

Callan [0:39:34]: yeah.

Jeff [0:39:35]: That can't be the number one thing you gotta do today.

Jeff [0:39:37]: And I was like, Man that, like, makes so much sense.

Jeff [0:39:39]: And you know what I mean?

Jeff [0:39:41]: I'm like, I should not be doing that.

Jeff [0:39:43]: Like, here I am, like, oh, On myself.

Jeff [0:39:45]: I'm like, I'm gonna go get the desks for the team and it's, like, couldn't order them online.

Jeff [0:39:49]: For a delivery, Like, spend thirty five dollars on the delivery if my kia Like, I think there's certain things like that in the beginning phase That were just, like, shouldn't have done, but did anyways.

Jeff [0:39:58]: So I wasn't sure like, what to do.

Jeff [0:40:00]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:40:01]: In the second phase, it was all about hiring.

Jeff [0:40:03]: And so you know, I think we made some wrong hires and I think I kept those people too long.

Callan [0:40:10]: Oh, I can empathize with that one.

Jeff [0:40:11]: And I actually bring that back to just not having the right...

Jeff [0:40:14]: Honestly, like, I have enough ownership in me to realize that that wasn't a them problem.

Jeff [0:40:18]: That was a me problem.

Jeff [0:40:19]: Hundred percent.

Jeff [0:40:19]: Like, didn't know what I was looking for.

Callan [0:40:21]: And it was fast for them to part ways.

Jeff [0:40:24]: Entrepreneurs yeah.

Jeff [0:40:24]: Like...

Jeff [0:40:24]: And it's, like, hard for people to do that sometimes, but when you hiring, if you don't know where you're trying to go and how you're gonna get there and the budget that you have and what you expect out of them and the Kpis that they need to move.

Jeff [0:40:34]: Then how do you find the person?

Jeff [0:40:36]: And so if you start with the person, and I know like, the Michael Collins book good to great is like, very popular and I'm not, like, anti, like, find the right person get them on the bus and see what happens.

Callan [0:40:44]: Mh.

Jeff [0:40:44]: But I do think that that can be dangerous.

Jeff [0:40:46]: Like, I do think that if you just hire someone based on their ten and like, their ability that they've done to some other company, and then you hire them and give them a completely different task.

Jeff [0:40:55]: They don't know how to do it.

Jeff [0:40:56]: It's ambiguous.

Jeff [0:40:57]: Like, it's just not gonna work.

Callan [0:40:59]: I think it's harder the bigger the company gets.

Jeff [0:41:01]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:01]: In the beginning, I guess I was I was saying that.

Jeff [0:41:03]: I was like, maybe I was that person, like, the day one thing for the first company Sure.

Jeff [0:41:06]: And they're just like, hey, like, he might have it.

Jeff [0:41:08]: Like, let's see if he does.

Jeff [0:41:09]: And if they're not thrive.

Jeff [0:41:10]: And so when you get into that phase too, it's like, they don't thrive because you really need some specific.

Jeff [0:41:15]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:16]: And so that's been big.

Jeff [0:41:17]: And so what's the stop doing?

Jeff [0:41:19]: Mh.

Jeff [0:41:19]: Say right now, the biggest thing is just not like stopping, but it's more of, like, just really empower my team to just go attack their goals and trying not to be there in, like, the core decision moments Mh and like letting them make those decisions without me or needing to be there.

Jeff [0:41:38]: And so that's been this, like, iteration of, like, maybe, like, that two to three.

Jeff [0:41:42]: Of just empowering and trusting the leaders that Already said or better at the jobs than I would be at their job and just setting very, very clear expectations, and then, like, not being a bottleneck of, like, Jeff has to be in every single meeting in every single decision.

Jeff [0:41:58]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:41:58]: Which has I think built a better leadership team at Mat and more time for golf.

Callan [0:42:06]: More time for...

Callan [0:42:07]: Which almost down

Jeff [0:42:08]: to No time for golf.

Jeff [0:42:09]: More time for golf.

Jeff [0:42:10]: No.

Jeff [0:42:10]: And honestly, like, that's unlocks so much more for me.

Jeff [0:42:13]: And I'm having a blast right now because, like, I'm actually, for the first time focusing on, like, six months plus.

Callan [0:42:21]: Mh.

Jeff [0:42:22]: And not like quarterly.

Jeff [0:42:23]: And so there are things that I'm working on that are the exciting next chapter, and I don't know exactly which will land first or what'll will happen, but being able to focus on that is only possible if the core is stable, and it's hard to get the core stable and start up, and once you start to see that it's stable, then you have to figure out what to do with your time.

Jeff [0:42:45]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:42:46]: And you realize it's not that hard.

Jeff [0:42:48]: There's all these things that we should be doing that'll make us the next level company, and you just need to apply yourself to those things and realize that your team's got it.

Jeff [0:42:56]: So it's not like I'm gone.

Jeff [0:42:57]: It's more just, like, they got it in those in game decisions.

Jeff [0:43:00]: Like, I don't need to be at every single meeting, which changes things.

Callan [0:43:05]: It frees you up to work on the things that can now exponentially move the company to that next level.

Jeff [0:43:12]: Yeah And the things that like, I'm actually better at.

Jeff [0:43:13]: Yeah.

Jeff [0:43:14]: And, like, I'm good at.

Jeff [0:43:15]: And I like doing and I enjoy.

Jeff [0:43:16]: And so, yeah, Works for both sides.

Callan [0:43:19]: Honestly, I don't think I can pick a better place to wrap the episode up.

Callan [0:43:23]: That was excellent.

Callan [0:43:24]: We got all the things I was hoping to get first so Jeff.

Callan [0:43:27]: Thanks for coming on better.