How Ido Deutsch is Using Paid Media to Acquire Insurance Agencies at Scale

Ido [0:00:00]: The core of your campaign is really understanding who your audience is?

Ido [0:00:03]: Where they spend their time?

Ido [0:00:04]: What types of problems you wanna solve for them, How is their they looking like.

Ido [0:00:08]: So when then you build things for them, whether it's a product or a marketing campaign or a channel where you're trying to approach them?

Ido [0:00:15]: You find them where they are, and you speak to their language, and then just everything else becomes a lot easier, then you get those leads and you get those conversations because it makes sense.

Callan [0:00:25]: Welcome to The Insurance Growth Lab.

Callan [0:00:27]: Where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance industry.

Callan [0:00:33]: I’m Callan Harrington, founder Flashgrowth and in each episode, I sit down with marketing growth leaders from carriers and sure tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale to channel or solve a specific growth challenge.

Callan [0:00:51]: It's no fluff, just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.

Callan [0:00:55]: Welcome back everyone to The Insurance Growth Lab.

Callan [0:01:03]: I'm Callan Harrington, and today, I'm joined by Ido Deutsch.

Callan [0:01:07]:Ido is the Vp of growth at Agentero.

Callan [0:01:09]: And if that name sounds familiar to our listeners,Ido is one of our first guests on that worked.

Callan [0:01:15]: When it comes to careers,Ido is a full blown renaissance man.

Callan [0:01:20]: From playing on the Israeli World cup team to founding multiple companies, he has literally done it all.

Callan [0:01:27]: And if you're interested in hearing that full story, highly encourage you to check out episode number five of that word.

Callan [0:01:34]: Now for our deep dive, we dove into the weeds ofIdo strategy for acquiring insurance agencies through paid media, especially Facebook.

Callan [0:01:44]: Now so many companies that have an agency tech product or distribute their products to insurance agencies, avoid paid media altogether and swear it doesn't work.

Callan [0:01:55]: Admittedly, I've been in that category before.

Callan [0:01:58]: And I will say this, that notion was myth busted today on the epic so,Ido is seeing a thirty dollar cost per lead.

Callan [0:02:08]: So I would say it's definitely worth the shot.

Callan [0:02:11]: And personally, I could have spent the entire time talking about this because I think it's so interesting.

Callan [0:02:18]: And more importantly, when you get this to work, it's very repeatable.

Callan [0:02:23]: If you've ever thought about testing paid media to inquire insurance agencies as customers you won't wanna miss this one.

Callan [0:02:31]: So with that, I'm gonna stop talking and let's get to the show.

Callan [0:02:34]: This is interesting.

Callan [0:02:42]: This is the first guess that we have welcomed back as a guest.

Callan [0:02:47]: We've had some c host, butIdo D, Vp of growth from Agentero, welcomed back to the show.

Ido [0:02:54]: Awesome.

Ido [0:02:54]: Great being here.

Ido [0:02:55]: Thanks for having in Cohen.

Callan [0:02:57]: So, you know, if anybody wants to hear kind of your full career.

Callan [0:03:00]: I highly recommend they go back and listen to the original episode that we recorded, which we'll talk a little bit about some of that because you might be one of the most in low key interesting people that I've ever met that I didn't even know all this until that original episode.

Ido [0:03:17]: Yeah.

Ido [0:03:17]: I love the surprises.

Callan [0:03:18]: To say the absolute least.

Callan [0:03:19]: But for this one, one of the areas that I would I would love to sort out.

Callan [0:03:23]: And we did talk about this a little bit, but I don't think I realized how much has had an impact on Tell about founding that first tech company.

Ido [0:03:32]: Yeah.

Ido [0:03:32]: That's a funny story.

Ido [0:03:33]: So end of my gains early twenties at worth in a lot of restaurants, just paying bills and stuff of that.

Ido [0:03:39]: And then very clearly remember that being in the restaurants, serving people, and then also getting all those online.

Ido [0:03:47]: So sitting in the restaurant, then at back then, that was two thousand eight, two thousand ten.

Ido [0:03:52]: Mh.

Ido [0:03:52]: You would get orders online via fax machine.

Ido [0:03:56]: So people will all the online, get a and then in the restaurant, you had a fax on the countertop, and you would wait for those A four pages to print one of the one in the pick time it will be crazy insane, like, with, like, forty fifty pages waiting for one page at a the time.

Ido [0:04:11]: And I was just, like, standing there and couldn't believe that is happening.

Ido [0:04:16]: That was, like, so stupid for me.

Ido [0:04:18]: And probably, two months later, I came up with, meta technical that became a c cofounder technical person.

Ido [0:04:26]: We talked about that.

Ido [0:04:27]: I I'm, like, this doesn't make any sense.

Ido [0:04:29]: So at that point in time, we just created a new product to make it this whole process digitally and connected to the restaurants point of sales and stuff like I just removed this crazy friction point I was so difficult to manage and date the operations of the restaurant.

Ido [0:04:45]: Right?

Ido [0:04:45]: So this is this is how I came off to start my first company, did it all digitally.

Ido [0:04:49]: And then this is actually going with me, like, in almost the other things that I've done in the past in terms of career steps and, like, you things that I've built.

Ido [0:04:58]: And it happens right now as well with producer flow.

Ido [0:05:01]: I've been in a situation, within Agentero needing to do thing to something around compliance and licensing that just didn't make any sense to me.

Ido [0:05:10]: Why does it have to be that manual in that, like, there no real solutions in the market?

Ido [0:05:15]: And it's just then easier to...

Ido [0:05:18]: I was, like, let's build a solution for that.

Ido [0:05:21]: And we build it.

Ido [0:05:22]: And now when I'm in display trying to market it and sell producer low.

Ido [0:05:25]: It's so much easier when you've been in place.

Ido [0:05:28]: Of feeling the pain, understanding, like, how challenging that is and then just speaking that language to the people on the other end.

Ido [0:05:35]: So that makes everything a lot easier.

Ido [0:05:37]: So I hope that makes sense.

Callan [0:05:40]: Let me summarize this real quick make sure I got you.

Callan [0:05:41]: But essentially, what I'm hearing is the first start up, you had this overwhelming feeling of why is this being done this way?

Ido [0:05:49]: Mh.

Callan [0:05:49]: And instead of waiting for somebody else to to do it.

Callan [0:05:52]: You just said, well, why don't I just try to fix this?

Callan [0:05:54]: Problem and see what happens?

Callan [0:05:55]: And so you found a technical c cofounder.

Callan [0:05:57]: But then fast forward to Agentero, and those that may not be totally familiar Agentero is a modern agency network that's got thousands sorts of agencies and producer flow is in a compliance and onboarding platform.

Callan [0:06:11]: So But I'm hearing just same thing.

Callan [0:06:13]: You had this problem with compliance and licensing and tracking all of this and making sure on top of it.

Callan [0:06:20]: Yep.

Callan [0:06:20]: Said, why don't we just solve this and then take that to market.

Callan [0:06:24]: Is that right that I essentially get all that correct?

Ido [0:06:26]: We yeah.

Ido [0:06:26]: A hundred percent.

Ido [0:06:27]: It's not the the thing about waiting for someone to build it is, just the feeling, like, even even looking in the boat back then that was like almost twenty years ago, back then when when I started this thing at the restaurant business.

Ido [0:06:37]: There were some solutions out there, but none of it made sense.

Ido [0:06:40]: When you fill this pain and you see how people are building a solution for it.

Ido [0:06:45]: It just didn't make sense to me.

Ido [0:06:47]: And so it's not, like waiting for someone else to build.

Ido [0:06:49]: I didn't feel like there is any other option.

Ido [0:06:51]: This is the same here.

Ido [0:06:52]: I couldn't stand what's out there and doing this problem manually, it was just such a big pain.

Ido [0:06:59]: And I feel like, throughout my career, that's the best place to come in when you build the new product, many people are, like, thinking about a problem of someone else and trying to solve for someone.

Ido [0:07:10]: But when you feel it yourself, I feel like this is the best place to build the product or the easiest way then to go to market and market to that same audience.

Ido [0:07:19]: Mh.

Ido [0:07:19]: When you feel the pain, when you know how it feels and what the challenges that you go through on the day to today.

Ido [0:07:25]: It just makes all the marketing pieces of after and the the go to market stuff so much.

Ido [0:07:30]: I wouldn't say easier it's never easy, but coming up with how to go to market.

Ido [0:07:36]: What's the type of voice and what's the type of challenges you're are solving?

Ido [0:07:40]: And just target to that audience?

Ido [0:07:42]: Just become so much more clear and easier to do?

Ido [0:07:45]: Like, you don't have to do a bunch of like brainstorming, strat, do a lot, like, it's just clear.

Ido [0:07:52]: I've been there.

Ido [0:07:53]: I know how it feels.

Ido [0:07:54]: Just tell me what it is and how it's solving.

Ido [0:07:56]: So I feel like, personally that works.

Ido [0:07:58]: It worked for me throughout my career and just makes afterwards, go to market and things are around that lot easier.

Callan [0:08:06]: When does it make sense to actually build this?

Callan [0:08:09]: In this scenario, did you ask the people that were out there if they could bake these changes because this is what we need to see?

Callan [0:08:15]: And is it...

Callan [0:08:16]: Do you just hear know enough times on that.

Callan [0:08:18]: It's like, we have to build this.

Callan [0:08:19]: But when when do you make that leap to actually build it?

Ido [0:08:22]: Great question.

Ido [0:08:22]: Definitely looking at what's out there because that's the easiest.

Ido [0:08:25]: Right?

Ido [0:08:26]: Like, you have a pain.

Ido [0:08:27]: You go out and search for what's out there.

Ido [0:08:29]: You look at the solutions, you talk to them.

Ido [0:08:32]: Many times, I mean, there are a lot of good solutions the market for many different challenges.

Ido [0:08:37]: For those specific ones, I don't know how to generalize it, but for those specific challenges that had both back then, now we for the...

Ido [0:08:45]: Tap a few other times in my in my career.

Ido [0:08:47]: The solutions that all out there just felt, like being built for something else, like, not for those problems, Like, they they built a solution that kind of, like solved around that, but it's not really targeted for that pain.

Ido [0:08:59]: Not for me as a user.

Ido [0:09:01]: It wasn't a lot about, like, let's talk to them and figure out how to fix it and how to build something different.

Ido [0:09:07]: It's just, like, they built something that didn't make sense for me.

Ido [0:09:09]: That was definitely on when we started.

Ido [0:09:11]: Here we producer the flow.

Ido [0:09:13]: It's a little bit different.

Ido [0:09:13]: There were a couple solutions in the market.

Ido [0:09:15]: Some of them are really let's call it.

Ido [0:09:18]: I don't know if all is the right world.

Ido [0:09:19]: But, like, they whole be quite quite a long time ago.

Ido [0:09:22]: So it wasn't easy to work with them.

Ido [0:09:23]: And then the only solution out in the market actually solved for the prob...

Ido [0:09:26]: Some of the problems.

Ido [0:09:27]: It wasn't very flexible for what I needed, so I needed something more flexible and that's why A bill, but it's also, like, on top of that, there were also commercial terms.

Ido [0:09:36]: Right?

Ido [0:09:36]: Like, and how they commercially they work and if it makes sense.

Ido [0:09:39]: For me, it didn't make sense.

Ido [0:09:41]: So I built initially built for me.

Ido [0:09:44]: So I built a solution for out problem, specifically, it made a lot more sense to us later on, we figured out that more people have this problem as well.

Ido [0:09:54]: Right?

Ido [0:09:54]: So we knew that more people have this problem, but they have the same problem that the existing provider couldn't solve for them, all the commercial terms didn't make any sense for them.

Ido [0:10:04]: So this is why we build the fraud.

Ido [0:10:06]: But I think what I want to take from here is more, like, they go to market and like, how you approach people and why how much you need to know your audience in order to create an attractive go to market, and in order to get a successful go to market, marketing motion, demand gen, whatever you're looking at, you know, if you're looking go to market.

Ido [0:10:26]: I think this is the core of strategy, the core of your campaign is really understanding who your audience is?

Ido [0:10:33]: Where they spend their time?

Ido [0:10:34]: What types of problems you wanna solve for them?

Ido [0:10:37]: How is that they looking like.

Ido [0:10:38]: So when then you build things for them, whether it's a product or a marketing campaign or a channel where you're trying to approach them, you find them where they are, and you speak to their language, and then just everything else becomes a lot easier, then you get those leads and you get those conversations because it makes sense.

Callan [0:10:55]: I agree with all that.

Callan [0:10:55]: One of the things that I'm curious about is as you mentioned that it makes it easier when you start out with a problem that you personally experienced.

Callan [0:11:03]: It makes sense on, like, the product.

Callan [0:11:05]: Why does that make the go to market easier?

Callan [0:11:07]: Is that because it's easier for you to tell that story?

Callan [0:11:11]: You know other people, like, it's easier to identify in segment who you need to target because you know them and, you know these problems more intimately or is this something else entirely?

Ido [0:11:22]: No.

Ido [0:11:22]: I think it's all of the above.

Ido [0:11:23]: So thinking from a personal perspective on whether my first company or this problem when you first hand see that you need to, like, copy and paste and copy and paste and go in and search manually.

Ido [0:11:36]: And there have no good solutions for that.

Ido [0:11:38]: It's like, why do I need to do it?

Ido [0:11:40]: And then when you take this pain.

Ido [0:11:41]: So I think both in product when you build, it should start from a pain?

Ido [0:11:45]: Like?

Ido [0:11:45]: What are you trying to solve for?

Ido [0:11:47]: I think marketing should be?

Ido [0:11:49]: And I think a lot of people that I'm talking to are doing the same.

Ido [0:11:52]: But looking from, like, what is the pain that those...

Ido [0:11:55]: Like, you need to market this product.

Ido [0:11:57]: Right?

Ido [0:11:57]: Like, what is the pain that this audience is experience.

Ido [0:11:59]: And it could be within the same company.

Ido [0:12:01]: It could be multiple different people that experiencing this problem with the different...

Ido [0:12:05]: From different aspects.

Ido [0:12:06]: But at least, you at least have to know, like, you can maybe be all of them, but you can stop from one, and maybe that who should be your first type of person that you, targeting within the company.

Ido [0:12:18]: Yeah.

Ido [0:12:19]: But you speak to their language you speak to the problem when they see or ad, though, when they see your email, it speaks a lot.

Ido [0:12:25]: You could do that without experiencing the problem, of course.

Ido [0:12:28]: A lot of people are doing that.

Ido [0:12:29]: Right?

Ido [0:12:29]: A lot of people learn the audience and learn what would make sense and what is the messaging that need to come across.

Ido [0:12:36]: I've done that multiple times in the past as well.

Ido [0:12:39]: But for me, personally, I feel like it's a lot more organic.

Ido [0:12:43]: It works a lot better.

Ido [0:12:45]: The both the marketing materials and the results of the projects turned out to be here a lot better.

Ido [0:12:52]: I feel like, personally when I when I go deep down, I think it's because I relate to that as a marketer, as a go to market person.

Ido [0:13:01]: I relate to the audience, which makes probably all the motion, all the marketing motion around it a lot more relatable.

Ido [0:13:08]: That's how I feel...

Ido [0:13:09]: That's why they're are most successful, but I have done a lot of successful campaigns for people that I I didn't know insurance.

Ido [0:13:16]: I was not an insurance person before I was not an insurance agent.

Ido [0:13:20]: I still built a lot of successful campaigns and built a very successful motion for insurance agents.

Ido [0:13:27]: Right?

Ido [0:13:27]: And gen and and sales motion all that for insurance agents.

Ido [0:13:30]: I wanna think that I'm relating to, but personally, it's harder for me to relay to that.

Ido [0:13:36]: I have to think through all the same things, but without relating, I feel like it works better when I have experienced this problem for firsthand.

Callan [0:13:44]: There's definitely a lot of truth to it.

Callan [0:13:45]: I mean I would actually probably make the argument that it's probably more impactful on the sales side than it is on the marketing side because one of the biggest things is, like if you're not passionate about that product that you're selling I've sold websites to insurance agencies.

Callan [0:14:01]: Yeah.

Callan [0:14:01]: I go sleep and, like, man I love insurance websites.

Callan [0:14:04]: No.

Callan [0:14:05]: But I was passionate about the agency and the impact that can have building the team and all that kind of stuff.

Ido [0:14:12]: Like you've been an agent before As what.

Ido [0:14:14]: No?

Callan [0:14:14]: Yes.

Callan [0:14:14]: I have.

Callan [0:14:15]: For sure.

Callan [0:14:16]: So do you

Ido [0:14:17]: feel like it had an impact on how you approach why it made you curious about this problem?

Ido [0:14:22]: Well, and made you better to solve that?

Callan [0:14:25]: We we're getting into the question.

Callan [0:14:26]: Right?

Callan [0:14:27]: Does insurance experience matter or not?

Callan [0:14:29]: I think it's a a really interesting question, but I'm probably not as dogma matter as I used to be on this.

Callan [0:14:35]: Mh.

Callan [0:14:36]: And I was very much of the mindset of insurance experience did it matter.

Callan [0:14:40]: Now, that was, like, kinda hypo critical because I...

Callan [0:14:43]: As you said, I was an agent.

Ido [0:14:44]: Mh.

Callan [0:14:45]: Yes.

Callan [0:14:45]: It made a big difference.

Callan [0:14:46]: A hundred percent.

Callan [0:14:47]: Me...

Callan [0:14:48]: My bet...

Callan [0:14:48]: Having me having that background made a big difference.

Callan [0:14:50]: I think the key is somebody on the team where I think I've probably came around to a lot more is somebody on the teams gotta have insurance experience.

Callan [0:14:58]: Yeah.

Callan [0:14:58]: And somebody has to be able to teach that and know the actual nuances.

Callan [0:15:02]: So the biggest thing can help for me was, is this kinda like the hammer trying to find a mail problem.

Callan [0:15:07]: Right?

Callan [0:15:08]: Mh pushing a feature or something of a product into an agency, and I could look at I could look at those products and say, this this isn't gonna work.

Callan [0:15:17]: This isn't...

Callan [0:15:18]: This doesn't fit the flow whatsoever.

Ido [0:15:21]: Yeah.

Ido [0:15:21]: Exactly.

Ido [0:15:22]: That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Callan [0:15:24]: Yeah.

Callan [0:15:24]: No.

Callan [0:15:24]: I think it's a great point.

Ido [0:15:25]: And I think it's not that if you don't have it, you can be successful, of course.

Ido [0:15:29]: Like, you don't have to have an insurance in this example, insurance experience to be successful selling to insurance agents.

Ido [0:15:34]: I feel like you'll be...

Ido [0:15:36]: As you said, you cannot know how they think you kinda know what would make sense about whatnot.

Ido [0:15:42]: On your calls with them, you'll be a lot more cutting to the chase.

Ido [0:15:45]: That...

Ido [0:15:45]: They will have much easier time talking...

Ido [0:15:47]: Speaking with you.

Ido [0:15:48]: Yep.

Ido [0:15:49]: You'll ask better questions.

Ido [0:15:50]: You'll ask more relatable questions because they feel the same pains.

Ido [0:15:54]: Like, you can learn all of that for sure.

Ido [0:15:56]: If you train well and you get the sales motion, you wanna see listen enough calls.

Ido [0:16:00]: You can do all that as well.

Ido [0:16:01]: But I feel it's you're more curious and you're more relatable, and it's a lot easier and then it comes back more naturally when you have that when you felt that.

Ido [0:16:11]: You know?

Ido [0:16:11]: Yeah.

Ido [0:16:12]: That's how it feel...

Ido [0:16:12]: Like, it's all learn.

Ido [0:16:13]: It's a you...

Ido [0:16:14]: It's a skill you can learn.

Ido [0:16:15]: But, yeah.

Ido [0:16:16]: As said, like, I think for me, it felt better and more impactful and the results were better when I had this background when I had this Spain.

Ido [0:16:25]: It just makes everything a more organic and a lot easier.

Callan [0:16:29]: The keywords easier.

Callan [0:16:30]: Yeah.

Callan [0:16:30]: Like, I agree with you.

Callan [0:16:31]: Like, and I've seen people that didn't come from the insurance space and come in and especially over the long tech period.

Callan [0:16:37]: And, like, that character will take over everything.

Callan [0:16:40]: Like, a high character person will take over everything.

Ido [0:16:42]: Mh.

Callan [0:16:42]: But if they've got high character and they have insurance experience or in the scenario you're describing, like, and experience that problem.

Callan [0:16:49]: Yeah.

Callan [0:16:49]: It's dramatically short.

Callan [0:16:51]: Exactly that point.

Callan [0:16:52]: They could speak to that problem directly a lot easier.

Callan [0:16:55]: So that makes total sense.

Callan [0:16:58]: Now one of the areas that I'd like to chat a little bit about is one of the things even as you guys kinda going back and re listening to that, you know, original episode.

Callan [0:17:07]: And what I said in the beginning, like, you have this low key.

Callan [0:17:10]: That's one of the most interesting careers.

Callan [0:17:12]: You were your whole life up until eighteen was the national soccer team with Israel.

Callan [0:17:17]: Depending on, like, the World Cup team for the under eighteen, and then you, make this abrupt change.

Callan [0:17:23]: Mh.

Callan [0:17:24]: To not doing soccer anymore to founding your own bar, founding your own tech company for the pain you experienced in the bar, moving to Boston during the Snow Miguel, moving across the country to go to business school at Berkeley Agentero.

Callan [0:17:42]: And you talked about this a little bit, I'd love to dive into this a little bit more.

Callan [0:17:45]: What has been kind of that throughput.

Callan [0:17:49]: That line of kinda of thinking at each one of these places that you took.

Callan [0:17:54]: Is there a commonality?

Callan [0:17:55]: Is it, like, I'm looking for what I don't wanna do.

Callan [0:17:58]: Like, I know what I don't wanna.

Callan [0:17:59]: So I'm looking for more of what I wanna do or is it opportunistic or something just completely different?

Ido [0:18:05]: That's a great question.

Ido [0:18:06]: That, you know, I probably give you an answer, and then I'll think more about that because it's a really good question.

Ido [0:18:11]: You know, why I move from one step, like, in retrospect, of course, I have, when I paint the picture, it kinda make sense.

Ido [0:18:19]: But for personally, for me, I'm a growth minded person, I always accept and enjoy and wanna take new experiences and learn new things.

Ido [0:18:29]: Whenever something new is coming up, I'll be all over it.

Ido [0:18:32]: I'll try to do it.

Ido [0:18:32]: So the same thing like, there was an opportunity to move to Boston and I was like, yeah.

Ido [0:18:37]: Let's do it.

Ido [0:18:37]: What do I have to lose.

Ido [0:18:38]: Right?

Ido [0:18:39]: Like, it's also thinking about, like, opportunities being the opportunistic Like, I have this opportunity.

Ido [0:18:44]: Let's take it.

Ido [0:18:44]: But it's also being able to take the risk and jump.

Ido [0:18:46]: This is like, started my...

Ido [0:18:48]: That...

Ido [0:18:49]: My first company.

Ido [0:18:49]: I felt the pain.

Ido [0:18:51]: Today, I would not ever start a company as I did last this company that was bootstrap didn't raise any dollar, didn't make any money for, like, eighteen months, just grinding and grinding and grinding and trying trying to build the product that would have a fit and, you know, would go to market and knocking on doors and restaurants one by one and getting this product in.

Ido [0:19:13]: I would never do it today this way.

Ido [0:19:15]: But I really wanted to build something back then?

Ido [0:19:18]: And and it felt like, I wanna learn how that...

Ido [0:19:20]: How can I do it better?

Ido [0:19:21]: How can I grow?

Ido [0:19:22]: How can Make it more.

Ido [0:19:23]: As they...

Ido [0:19:24]: I think this is the the through line for me.

Ido [0:19:25]: It's, like, if I see something does make sense, I'll build it, but it's more like, I wanna experience more things.

Ido [0:19:30]: I wanna grow my skill sets when there's something new in the market.

Ido [0:19:35]: I wanna try it.

Ido [0:19:36]: Like, Ai comes up, and I'm, like, all over it.

Ido [0:19:38]: Right?

Ido [0:19:39]: Like, I'm and there probably people that are doing in more than me, but, like, I'll try every new things that come up.

Ido [0:19:44]: I wanna learn and I wanna take new experiences.

Ido [0:19:46]: Mh.

Ido [0:19:47]: So I think it's a combination of that with like, thinking about, like, the big picture.

Ido [0:19:52]: Yeah.

Ido [0:19:53]: Learning and growing, plus being opportunistic.

Ido [0:19:55]: Like, oh, I have an expert...

Ido [0:19:57]: I have an opportunity to do action why.

Ido [0:19:59]: Does it make sense?

Ido [0:20:00]: What am I gonna learn is is gonna help me grow?

Ido [0:20:02]: Either make career real professional or personal life.

Ido [0:20:05]: If yes, then why not?

Ido [0:20:07]: Like, what do I have to lose.

Ido [0:20:08]: Right?

Ido [0:20:09]: So I'll just I'll just take the step and

Callan [0:20:12]: just do it.

Callan [0:20:12]: What I'm hearing you say is that at each stop, something came up Yep where you had this opportunity to grow.

Callan [0:20:21]: And you didn't really think too much about it.

Callan [0:20:23]: Like, you knew it was good.

Callan [0:20:24]: You knew would stretch you and, like, what you're saying.

Callan [0:20:26]: It's, like, you're kind of wired to jump to go and let's figure it out once we're in there.

Callan [0:20:34]: Is that right?

Ido [0:20:35]: I think a lot of it is right.

Ido [0:20:36]: I think a lot of it is what makes me excited about building things.

Ido [0:20:41]: And start things from scratch.

Ido [0:20:43]: That's why I consider myself if gonna ask me about, you know, work related what you are.

Ido [0:20:48]: I'm always consider myself a builder because I I love to build from scratch.

Ido [0:20:51]: And a lot of it is, like, I wanna figure out I wanna build.

Ido [0:20:54]: I wanna learn, you know, everything is different.

Ido [0:20:57]: Yeah.

Ido [0:20:57]: Experiencing new things, stretching yourself being in a con...

Ido [0:21:01]: Outside of the conference zone places you'd...

Ido [0:21:03]: How do I approach those people?

Ido [0:21:06]: How do I get to them?

Ido [0:21:07]: How do I build this whole thing now?

Ido [0:21:08]: I need to you know, you have a revenue target.

Ido [0:21:11]: How do you get there?

Ido [0:21:12]: You just jump in and you figure that out.

Ido [0:21:14]: Many people are spending a lot of time in the planning, and they could spend months.

Ido [0:21:20]: Oh, years and planning things.

Ido [0:21:22]: For me, It's more like, let's just jump right in and and start doing.

Ido [0:21:26]: I think that when I take this through line, it makes sense for me also on, like, how I do marketing, for example, like, experimentation and building a framework for experimentation.

Ido [0:21:35]: Like, the way I'm thinking about marketing for an audience, I never think, like, in the case that where I feel like I'm very strongly opinionated about the case because I've experienced, this is one thing.

Ido [0:21:46]: But if I need to build a motion, like, oh, a new audience that I'm not familiar insurance agents, joining Agentero.

Ido [0:21:53]: I met Luis louis business call didn't know much about insurance agents all at all, and needed to start building a a machine to get demand and building engine.

Ido [0:22:03]: The way I've been thinking about is, like, let's experiment with many things, learn from everything that you're experiencing.

Ido [0:22:10]: Let's build the way to track all those things about experiencing.

Ido [0:22:13]: So then when something is working, you know, that's working.

Ido [0:22:17]: I didn't experience this Spain.

Ido [0:22:18]: Right?

Ido [0:22:18]: Like, I don't know how to speak to those people, let's just throw a bunch of things, let's make sure that we know what we are tracking, what will be the metrics that we are trying to move and just do a bunch of things until we find what's working.

Ido [0:22:29]: And when we find what what's working then double down on it.

Ido [0:22:32]: I think that's a throughput that, if I...

Ido [0:22:35]: You just asked me this question.

Ido [0:22:36]: I was like, oh, this is what's top of mind, and I probably to think about it more, but maybe not because it's, like, it's the same thing and, like, that's how I think about growth, that's how I think about marketing.

Ido [0:22:46]: Like, you don't really know.

Ido [0:22:48]: You kinda know your audience, but until you try things and figure out what's really working, you you would never know.

Ido [0:22:54]: Right, like, you could think and brainstorm and do, like, a million things in the back, but until you put things out there, track it figure out if it work...

Ido [0:23:02]: If it's working on out and testing different things.

Ido [0:23:04]: You wouldn't really know.

Ido [0:23:06]: So it's, like, and you have to learn every time.

Ido [0:23:09]: You can just put things without learning, you have to put things.

Ido [0:23:11]: You know...

Ido [0:23:12]: You have to have the framework and the methodology to understand what you're testing, what you're expecting to see or what's what's the result that you're trying to see from those...

Ido [0:23:23]: Let's see if we call it marketing if it's campaign, let's, what are the results you're trying to solve this campaign and really track it and test a bunch of things until you find the things that without working.

Ido [0:23:33]: And once that working doubled down on it?

Ido [0:23:35]: So my personal and professional care just come to see.

Ido [0:23:38]: Let's try.

Ido [0:23:38]: Let's figure out, let's jump right in.

Ido [0:23:40]: Let's do it.

Ido [0:23:41]: If it works, let's dig more.

Ido [0:23:43]: Let's do more things around that.

Ido [0:23:45]: For me now bring it from top of my and makes all sense.

Callan [0:23:49]: Alright.

Callan [0:23:49]: So let's get in the weeds on this.

Callan [0:23:50]: Yeah.

Callan [0:23:50]: It's a perfect segue.

Callan [0:23:51]: And one of the areas that I really wanna dive into deep is Agentero specifically.

Callan [0:23:58]: Yep.

Callan [0:23:58]: Probably has one of the most successful.

Callan [0:24:01]: All, I'm gonna call it marketing assisted product leg growth.

Callan [0:24:05]: Okay.

Callan [0:24:05]: In acquiring insurance agencies.

Callan [0:24:08]: Mh.

Callan [0:24:08]: For our audience, it's maybe new to go to market emotions foreign insurance agencies.

Callan [0:24:13]: And whether...

Callan [0:24:13]: And I've done this in P and c life health.

Callan [0:24:15]: I've done it across the board.

Callan [0:24:17]: The most tried and true is cold calling.

Callan [0:24:21]: U.

Callan [0:24:21]: It it still works today.

Callan [0:24:23]: Cold calling might be slowing down everywhere else, but it still works with insurance agencies, and it doesn't mean that the convergence aren't changing, but one of the things that, you know, even from our original first conversation.

Callan [0:24:33]: I mean, I can tell you when we first spoke and you were saying, like, yeah, we're generating a lot of these on paid campaigns.

Callan [0:24:38]: I remember thinking, not buy it.

Ido [0:24:44]: Yeah.

Ido [0:24:44]: It's been eight years now.

Ido [0:24:45]: It's still gone.

Ido [0:24:46]: It's super predictable and growing.

Ido [0:24:49]: So...

Ido [0:24:49]: Yeah, for sure.

Callan [0:24:51]: Obviously, we've got to know each other, and we've worked together for, multiple years at this point.

Callan [0:24:56]: Mh.

Callan [0:24:56]: And so I know this is real.

Callan [0:24:58]: Well.

Ido [0:25:00]: I didn't make it up.

Callan [0:25:01]: Yeah.

Callan [0:25:01]: So let's talk about this.

Callan [0:25:03]: Yeah.

Callan [0:25:04]: Because so many people try and fail.

Callan [0:25:06]: Mh.

Callan [0:25:07]: Not said there are some people that do this well as well.

Callan [0:25:09]: I don't wanna make it seem like this is this impossible black box.

Callan [0:25:12]: The only one that's ever figured it out.

Callan [0:25:14]: But it's not a big number?

Callan [0:25:16]: I could tell you that for sure.

Callan [0:25:17]: Mh.

Callan [0:25:17]: Where did the start?

Callan [0:25:18]: When did you start experimenting with it?

Callan [0:25:20]: What channels did you start experimenting?

Callan [0:25:22]: What it like, what did this look like?

Callan [0:25:23]: What was the Genesis for even trying this?

Ido [0:25:26]: Yeah.

Ido [0:25:26]: That's a great question.

Ido [0:25:27]: So I met Luis, the founder of Agentero Fund Ceo at business school, joined him while I was still in business school working full time on on Agentero.

Ido [0:25:37]: And the first thing that...

Ido [0:25:39]: Because I was still a student business school and he was like, yeah.

Ido [0:25:43]: I need help building some demand gen.

Ido [0:25:45]: And the first thing I did was, like, I've done many times in the past.

Ido [0:25:48]: Okay.

Ido [0:25:48]: Start with the least.

Ido [0:25:49]: Right?

Ido [0:25:50]: So, who are you targeting, Get the audience, like, understand.

Ido [0:25:53]: I I didn't know anything about insurance agents.

Ido [0:25:55]: So know, this is what it all started figuring out learning more about insurance agents.

Ido [0:25:59]: And then building this methodology of experimentation.

Ido [0:26:02]: Right?

Ido [0:26:02]: The first thing I've done was researching contacts, probably.

Ido [0:26:06]: Many people have done is either buying lists or going online, trying to figure out lists of who is your audience, how you're gonna approach them.

Ido [0:26:13]: Mh.

Ido [0:26:13]: And generally, what I did was going into email.

Ido [0:26:17]: Right?

Ido [0:26:18]: Like, called calling and email pretty straightforward, testing a bunch of things.

Ido [0:26:22]: It's probably taking me, like, two weeks doing a...

Ido [0:26:26]: A bunch of experiments on those to figure out that also agents spend a lot of time on, like, like everyone else on social media?

Ido [0:26:33]: Yeah.

Ido [0:26:34]: When you talk them well, well, where are you looking for things?

Ido [0:26:37]: You know, how do you find your solutions when you talk to them when you send an email stuff that that they talk about social media.

Ido [0:26:43]: I was like, let's try.

Ido [0:26:44]: Same thing as I've done in my life in my career, they just put more experiments.

Ido [0:26:49]: So Okay.

Ido [0:26:50]: It was just me.

Ido [0:26:51]: Right?

Ido [0:26:51]: Like, just me or, like, three people for people in an incubator in Berkeley.

Ido [0:26:55]: And went into Facebook started a campaign got a couple designs.

Ido [0:27:00]: The initial part was just, like, putting...

Ido [0:27:02]: Like, what probably everyone else is doing, which is putting some campaigns out there and starting to track results.

Ido [0:27:07]: And within my methodology.

Ido [0:27:10]: It's always like, okay.

Ido [0:27:11]: Let's now...

Ido [0:27:11]: We put in something on Facebook.

Ido [0:27:13]: We put in something on Linkedin.

Ido [0:27:14]: We put it like, where are agents spending their time.

Ido [0:27:17]: So learning more on that.

Ido [0:27:18]: The initial campaign that really changed how I think about that was getting this contact list that I've researched in the past.

Ido [0:27:27]: So I had a bunch of contacts, let's say, twenty thousand contacts of insurance agents, emails, and names, whatever.

Ido [0:27:34]: Putting them in Facebook as a target audience.

Ido [0:27:38]: I didn't know much Like, I've done that in the past, but nothing to that extent of, like, building a methodology around that, but I saw this is starting to work.

Ido [0:27:49]: Right?

Ido [0:27:49]: Like, I put in, like, twenty thousand contacts in the audience on Facebook, and then Facebook is matching the audience, and then I see that those ads are starting to work and bring in couple leads that were converting better than other campaigns.

Ido [0:28:02]: Mh.

Ido [0:28:03]: Once I've seen that, that was a clear signal to say, this thing is working, Let's double down.

Ido [0:28:09]: So increasing the leads, increasing the audience in that list, increasing the campaigns, increasing the spend, this has shot up the leads and the conversion really high.

Ido [0:28:18]: And then from that moment on, of course, we expanded, we have a lot of on who we target how we target, which were, you know, which specific campaigns and images and all that.

Ido [0:28:28]: But the first thing was figuring out the campaign motion that works, This came out with a with a lot of experimentation.

Ido [0:28:34]: So going back to trying to sort like, looking from a top to bottom, starting with the audience where they spend their time figuring our way to experiment with all of them with the audience with messaging, but with channels as well, And then within those channels when when you can figure out that something is working well double down on it.

Ido [0:28:54]: That works really well for us for the last eight years, Facebook is our most productive channel, so it gets us very predictable, very predictable amount of leads per cost that we are spending around with wild.

Ido [0:29:09]: Like we are spending, but it's not crazy to spend cost per this product thirty forty bucks or something like that.

Ido [0:29:15]: It's not expensive.

Ido [0:29:16]: Yeah.

Ido [0:29:17]: Considering Have different places like it depending on for us it's not that expensive.

Callan [0:29:22]: No.

Callan [0:29:22]: For sure.

Callan [0:29:23]: Wait.

Callan [0:29:23]: I mean, especially when you think and it definitely used to scare Bo away better percent because different.

Callan [0:29:28]: I remember...

Callan [0:29:29]: Like, because I knew paid search on the insurance side.

Callan [0:29:31]: Yes.

Callan [0:29:31]: An insurance click could be seventy a hundred dollars per click.

Callan [0:29:34]: One of the things I think that's often...

Callan [0:29:36]: Mh.

Callan [0:29:37]: Unless you're from the space, and you guys learned this.

Callan [0:29:40]: Right?

Callan [0:29:40]: You were at a broker and Luis was at Cover wallet.

Callan [0:29:43]: Yeah.

Callan [0:29:43]: There was some insurance experience for sure, but neither of you probably would have known that some of the biggest agent

Ido [0:29:51]: I'm

Callan [0:29:52]: Facebook, or some of the biggest agent communities they're still housed on Facebook.

Ido [0:29:57]: They hired Crazy Right?

Callan [0:29:58]: They haven't moved to, like, that's not a crazy...

Callan [0:30:00]: Like, the funniest thing about that is so, like, if you look, like, Dave Ge, b to b marketing group, x exit five.

Callan [0:30:06]: That was a Facebook group, I believe for.

Callan [0:30:09]: A very long time.

Callan [0:30:10]: And it's a it's a hard decision, like, to deep platform and move to another platform, But it's funny.

Callan [0:30:15]: Like, when you hear that, like, I said, like, it's wild that Facebook still the top driver, but at the same point, that's where the communities are.

Callan [0:30:23]: Yeah.

Callan [0:30:23]: That's like, one of the weird strangle homes that Facebook still has are these communities.

Ido [0:30:30]: For sure.

Ido [0:30:30]: I mean, you can look at a Facebook, I'm going back to the audience and say, like, you know, where when you know who those agents are.

Ido [0:30:36]: When you know how to spend their time, Facebook is very easy for them.

Ido [0:30:40]: Like, when you look at the age when you look at where where they're are from the communities in Facebook they're they're reaching out to the community to sell insurance.

Ido [0:30:48]: Right?

Ido [0:30:48]: Like, they connect with real estate, realtors in the community through Facebook.

Ido [0:30:54]: They find their business through Facebook.

Ido [0:30:56]: So they're standing time on Facebook.

Ido [0:30:57]: They're also in the the age group that don't use, like, Tiktok or whatever.

Ido [0:31:02]: Maybe they some of them do use Tiktok.

Ido [0:31:03]: But maybe...

Ido [0:31:04]: For us, we are starting to experiment with new channels, but they're not that success, Like, when when when we experiment with like, a Instagram or Tiktok and things like that.

Ido [0:31:12]: It...

Ido [0:31:12]: Sure.

Ido [0:31:13]: It's okay, But it's not it's not the same.

Ido [0:31:15]: Right?

Ido [0:31:15]: It's not working the same We're still figuring out a motion there.

Ido [0:31:18]: But I think a lot of it results from, like, the audience doesn't spend a lot of time on those platforms.

Ido [0:31:22]: So you could build a successful youtube motion of successful instagram motion that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't spend time there, But I think a lot of them are still spending their time on Facebook.

Ido [0:31:35]: So, yes, The communities will be there.

Ido [0:31:36]: They're telling that time they're paying playing games on their phone on Facebook.

Ido [0:31:40]: Like, those type things.

Ido [0:31:41]: So when you have an ad, this jumps up on their on, you know, their insurance agency and they are playing whatever candy crush, I don't know what they're are playing on the phone, and then there is an ad that's come up from Facebook saying, hey.

Ido [0:31:52]: You you need more...

Ido [0:31:53]: You know, you need more care access.

Ido [0:31:55]: You need the better...

Ido [0:31:55]: At a better way to run your agency.

Ido [0:31:57]: Oh, wow.

Ido [0:31:58]: Yes.

Ido [0:31:59]: How do you know me?

Ido [0:32:00]: I'm I'm here playing and you know, reaching out to me with this message.

Ido [0:32:03]: Thank you, and they click and they they become lead.

Ido [0:32:05]: Right?

Ido [0:32:05]: So those things, if you know where you all spending your time.

Ido [0:32:09]: This is where you need to go.

Ido [0:32:10]: And sometimes it's not straightforward.

Ido [0:32:13]: Like, before Agentero, I would never...

Ido [0:32:15]: I would never imagine that Facebook would be working as a at scale channel to generate leads that to clients for a B thing, like, maybe consumer, but B, I would never imagine.

Callan [0:32:28]: Yeah.

Ido [0:32:28]: But it's working really well.

Ido [0:32:29]: So it's a lot about experiment?

Ido [0:32:31]: Knowing your the and experimenting.

Callan [0:32:34]: Now I play candy crush before taking off and and landing for.

Ido [0:32:42]: Did you get my ad?

Ido [0:32:42]: Did you get my ad the other?

Callan [0:32:44]: I love that I I actually just made the connection.

Callan [0:32:46]: It's because I'm an agent at heart.

Callan [0:32:48]: Yeah.

Callan [0:32:50]: Makes sense.

Ido [0:32:52]: We we know it's all about you.

Ido [0:32:54]: We...

Callan [0:32:54]: Yeah.

Callan [0:32:54]: Yeah.

Callan [0:32:55]: No.

Callan [0:32:55]: Yeah.

Callan [0:32:55]: You probably do, Sad.

Callan [0:32:56]: I would argue almost probably all of us have that.

Callan [0:32:59]: So same guilty pleasure, and that's super interesting.

Ido [0:33:03]: Yeah.

Callan [0:33:03]: Okay.

Callan [0:33:03]: One of the areas I wanna zero in on is what's the optimization process look like?

Callan [0:33:09]: What types of analytics are you looking at?

Callan [0:33:12]: Any types like analytic platforms that you're you're using.

Callan [0:33:15]: What does that look like?

Ido [0:33:17]: Good question, There there is a lot around metrics.

Ido [0:33:19]: It's always that simple.

Ido [0:33:21]: You could always dig deeper to, like, the image images and times spend and, like, oh, the there are so many metrics you can look at.

Ido [0:33:29]: I'm always going back to...

Ido [0:33:30]: There this funnel.

Ido [0:33:32]: It's like, so I would split it into two.

Ido [0:33:34]: One is like what...

Ido [0:33:35]: What when I'm building my experimentation framework.

Ido [0:33:39]: I wanna have a metric that I'm aiming towards.

Ido [0:33:42]: Right?

Ido [0:33:43]: So it might be leads generated or a cost per lead or a customer for a conversion.

Ido [0:33:48]: The general theme for me is, like, marketing should make sales this year.

Ido [0:33:52]: I, like, just generating leads doesn't help anyone unless they're are converting and they're converting in a good base that eventually

Callan [0:33:58]: just you just made my entire.

Callan [0:34:00]: Okay.

Callan [0:34:01]: Sales audience.

Callan [0:34:02]: So happy with that statement.

Ido [0:34:05]: Oh, yeah.

Ido [0:34:05]: It doesn't make sense to generate Leads.

Ido [0:34:07]: Just for the sake of generating leads.

Ido [0:34:08]: That's why when I I basically built my role at Agentero by what...

Ido [0:34:13]: Like, I...

Ido [0:34:14]: It's very hard for me to differentiate marketing from sales, for example.

Ido [0:34:19]: Right?

Ido [0:34:19]: Because I think about it as a fan, like, you have to you know, when you separate marketing and says, maybe there are other parts of the marketing could be separated like, branding or, you know, things like that.

Ido [0:34:28]: But, like, anything related to lead generation and demand gen, building a bunch of leads that then don't convert doesn't make sense like your experimentation shouldn't be just on I could generate those leads, but you need the clients eventually.

Ido [0:34:41]: Right?

Ido [0:34:41]: So you have to track the revenue.

Ido [0:34:42]: Yeah.

Ido [0:34:43]: The metrics to revenue all the time and conversion.

Ido [0:34:46]: I would rather generate one lead that converts to one deal to one sale versus generating, like, a hundred leads that convert to one sale.

Ido [0:34:55]: Right?

Ido [0:34:55]: Like I spend a lot more time and spending my wheels on on those hundred leads to get to one sale versus if I generate one lead that is good that it's converting.

Ido [0:35:03]: Like, you you always deal with those optimizations.

Ido [0:35:05]: You also want volume, but you also wanted to convert so you don't just wanna people.

Ido [0:35:10]: Alright?

Ido [0:35:10]: So this is always high level funnel in my mind, like, that's why I have a strong opinion on a revenue leader managing both marketing and sales.

Ido [0:35:20]: Again, as especially the demand gen parts of it?

Ido [0:35:23]: I think it doesn't make sense to separate those in my view.

Ido [0:35:26]: Do you wanna have another episode on that with...

Ido [0:35:28]: We can have another episode

Callan [0:35:30]: spicy hot take.

Callan [0:35:31]: Potentially to spare but potentially a spicy hot take.

Callan [0:35:35]: Do you think that the Cro?

Callan [0:35:36]: Yeah.

Callan [0:35:37]: Should own or use whatever title you wanna use on that?

Callan [0:35:40]: Should they own sales, marketing customer success?

Callan [0:35:44]: Should they own sales and marketing?

Callan [0:35:47]: Should they own sales and customer success?

Callan [0:35:49]: So they own just sales.

Ido [0:35:51]: I think the whole customer journey.

Ido [0:35:52]: My point of view and it's pretty strong.

Ido [0:35:54]: Is the whole customer journey.

Ido [0:35:55]: Because do you wanna optimize for the for the customer for your audience, and it starts from awareness and what they think when they see.

Ido [0:36:03]: So I even I would even claim that you could go to the brand building.

Ido [0:36:07]: But when you talk to marketing, deeply the the...

Ido [0:36:11]: You know, there is the demand gen and there is the branding wellness spot pieces, which I could see some arguments why Brand could be separated from it, but other than Brent, anything that's related to Lead legion messaging out there.

Ido [0:36:26]: This is all part of marketing sales and definitely post client acquisition.

Ido [0:36:31]: So success.

Ido [0:36:32]: Right?

Ido [0:36:32]: Yeah.

Ido [0:36:33]: So you you have to manage your client experience, Like, if you see that holistically, you would optimize the right things versus if you don't look at it holistically, and you have your own goals in marketing or in success.

Ido [0:36:44]: So in sales, you would optimize for your goal and you might...

Ido [0:36:48]: In most cases I've seen that happen that then you have those marketing and sales, pushing in different directions, and they're are all those like, oh, but those are not good leads, but they're not convert, like, you'll have, like, in fighting and, like, this is not helping anyone.

Ido [0:37:01]: The most important view is the customer view or the prospect of the customer and build journey in my opinion, and you wanna optimize for that to be successful in optimizing for that, that has to be someone that leads the salesperson person wouldn't know marketing, but the the leader that sees that holistically and and strategize around that should see that holistic holistically and should see the whole and own this whole funnel.

Ido [0:37:27]: That's that's why how I think about, like, if you separate marketing and mentioned, you start getting, like, friction, the client starts getting, like, web experiences.

Ido [0:37:36]: Right?

Ido [0:37:37]: Like, they'll see something on the messaging on the marketing on the plus Pdf, so on those things that coming out.

Ido [0:37:41]: And then the salesperson would go on the call and do, like, a.

Ido [0:37:45]: They wouldn't talk to the same value propositions or they wouldn't talk with the same functionalities, or they wouldn't know which campaign specifically, this one has come...

Ido [0:37:52]: Has came from, like, they're starting to be so many friction between marketing and sales.

Ido [0:37:57]: And they show up.

Ido [0:37:58]: It's not the friction in...

Ido [0:38:00]: It's not the internal friction that worries me.

Ido [0:38:03]: It's more like what the customer is.

Ido [0:38:04]: Right?

Ido [0:38:04]: And and I think it works better when you have someone that is owning the whole thing.

Callan [0:38:09]: It's a very interesting debate.

Callan [0:38:10]: And I used to feel very strong like, how you did on this.

Callan [0:38:15]: Mh.

Callan [0:38:16]: I think I've sensed felt that, especially as the company becomes much larger.

Callan [0:38:21]: The the Cmo somebody that's really good Cmo, I think is just brings a different skill set that is different than the sales and the customer success side.

Callan [0:38:33]: Now you could also make the argument at what that I But

Ido [0:38:36]: back what that goes skit us sets just for...

Ido [0:38:38]: You know.

Callan [0:38:39]: The brand to me is, like, not very important at all, actually, in the earliest stages.

Callan [0:38:43]: Mh Oh, yeah.

Callan [0:38:44]: It's gonna be clear.

Callan [0:38:45]: In the earliest stages, as a has as a strategy and creative agency.

Callan [0:38:50]: I think brand is very important.

Callan [0:38:52]: Yeah.

Callan [0:38:53]: But I think it becomes exponentially more important as the company becomes much larger because it truly takes up a bigger position within the market.

Callan [0:39:03]: And I agree with you, like, demand demand gens and it's like it's not like demand does becomes less important, but you already kinda talked about it Like, you've got the machine now.

Callan [0:39:12]: Right?

Callan [0:39:12]: So the demand gen is just like, maintenance on the machine, test out new areas and continue to grow it, but it's like, become becomes much larger that brand huge.

Callan [0:39:21]: And I think a good Cmo.

Callan [0:39:22]: Yeah.

Callan [0:39:23]: Bring something very unique to that positioning into that messaging into internet branding.

Ido [0:39:27]: So I can see that.

Ido [0:39:28]: That was my the other arguments that like, I could see where Right?

Ido [0:39:33]: Like, the the argument that could see working is like, when you get to a certain size.

Ido [0:39:36]: The engine is less critical.

Ido [0:39:39]: You always wanna have a engine and have machine, but most...

Ido [0:39:42]: Like, you probably...

Ido [0:39:43]: Like, especially if you're going to insurance is like a limited sized industry and you probably already, like, talk to.

Ido [0:39:49]: Most of the industry.

Ido [0:39:50]: That's relevant for you.

Ido [0:39:51]: Most of the youngest.

Ido [0:39:51]: Like, the brand is becoming a much bigger thing.

Ido [0:39:54]: And then, yes.

Ido [0:39:54]: I agree with that.

Ido [0:39:55]: Yeah.

Ido [0:39:56]: The the Are Cro that could manage that too, but a dedicated Cmo to continue enhancing the brand and build that and creating a brand is different than funnel management?

Ido [0:40:07]: Let's call it.

Ido [0:40:08]: Right?

Ido [0:40:08]: Like Cro funnel management, Which type of leads we need, Which type of clients?

Ido [0:40:11]: How do we talk to them?

Ido [0:40:12]: What do they see?

Ido [0:40:13]: Yeah.

Ido [0:40:13]: This is, like, the the the the the life cycle and the journey of the client.

Ido [0:40:18]: But how they get to this journey, there's a lot of brand building, which earlier stages, I think the Cro is fully capable and should be doing that because it's very tied to the customer journey.

Ido [0:40:32]: But as you grow, yes.

Ido [0:40:35]: Your point, I I fully agree with that.

Ido [0:40:37]: Like, it becomes brand becomes something different that...

Ido [0:40:41]: You.

Callan [0:40:42]: I'm sorry.

Ido [0:40:43]: Eventually, it will build your demand gen as well.

Ido [0:40:44]: Right?

Ido [0:40:44]: Like when when when your brand is big enough This is, like, peep people recognize you as the market leader or whatever there is, then the brand the brand is what gets you there, not the legion.

Ido [0:40:53]: Not a demand gen.

Ido [0:40:54]: So, yes, there there is definitely...

Ido [0:40:55]: The thing that I would push back is, okay.

Ido [0:41:00]: How do you know this Cmo is doing great job like, how do you measure those brand?

Ido [0:41:04]: How do you how do you understand?

Ido [0:41:07]: Okay.

Ido [0:41:08]: If you if you're are a sudden sized company and you hire a Cmo because they're awesome.

Ido [0:41:13]: How how do you know that actually then Could...

Ido [0:41:15]: When when do you know how do you evaluate them?

Ido [0:41:18]: Like, the...

Ido [0:41:19]: Like, if it's not the the the leads in the demand and the conversion to...

Callan [0:41:23]: Like, I think those are all on the table, a hundred percent.

Callan [0:41:26]: Conversion in particular.

Callan [0:41:27]: Like, conversion in Amber, Amber Wuollet who was on here.

Callan [0:41:31]: Was...

Callan [0:41:31]: It will be the previous episode from this.

Callan [0:41:33]: Okay.

Callan [0:41:34]: She had, like, one of the best examples I've heard of, in her campaign.

Callan [0:41:38]: She's talked about how they changed positioning of a product.

Callan [0:41:43]: It's like, Mh.

Callan [0:41:45]: Virtually the same exact product, but then the sales went through the roof.

Callan [0:41:49]: Mh.

Callan [0:41:49]: So they have better positioning

Ido [0:41:51]: so Okay.

Callan [0:41:52]: And that's where, like, that's where truly good.

Callan [0:41:53]: Like, when I say brand.

Callan [0:41:54]: What I mean, brand, I mean, that's your brand messaging.

Callan [0:41:57]: Your brand guidelines, how you're positioning your...

Callan [0:41:59]: How how everything comes together.

Ido [0:42:02]: Product marketing, a lot of that.

Ido [0:42:03]: Yes.

Ido [0:42:03]: I grew that.

Ido [0:42:05]: And this should measure, like, this should make sales easier.

Ido [0:42:08]: Right?

Ido [0:42:08]: So I I...

Ido [0:42:09]: Like, yes.

Ido [0:42:09]: If you the thing I've gotten in the past was, like, oh, it's really hard to measure how do you do all that?

Ido [0:42:16]: Like, I think it has to have to move metrics, you

Callan [0:42:19]: know,

Ido [0:42:20]: Like.

Ido [0:42:20]: If you're doing a...

Ido [0:42:22]: You're working with a creative agency and you do, you know, you build your brand.

Ido [0:42:26]: Mh.

Ido [0:42:26]: Or, you hire the Cmo and you're building your brand.

Ido [0:42:29]: This has to have a direct impact.

Ido [0:42:31]: I don't know what's the timeline on that.

Ido [0:42:33]: It's at thirty sixty, ninety days, or it's longer time from than that, but you have to have a way to really measure it.

Ido [0:42:40]: Because if not, for me, personally, it's too soft, they doesn't matter how big are.

Ido [0:42:44]: I know that a lot of marketing people would probably say, otherwise, like, sometimes you can measure everything.

Ido [0:42:50]: But from me it has to have an impact on the metrics.

Callan [0:42:53]: Yeah.

Callan [0:42:53]: It's tricky.

Callan [0:42:54]: Because...

Callan [0:42:55]: Well, because you're not gonna get it in thirty days.

Callan [0:42:56]: Like got some...

Callan [0:42:57]: I I don't wanna say that's impossible Impossible.

Ido [0:43:00]: Yeah.

Ido [0:43:00]: Yeah.

Ido [0:43:00]: Makes makes sense.

Ido [0:43:01]: I agree.

Callan [0:43:02]: And Amber actually, like, challenged my kind of thought process on that when hearing, like, what she was talking about.

Callan [0:43:07]: So we talked about your career.

Callan [0:43:08]: We talked about your philosophy how you kinda go about this with the experimentation and all of that.

Callan [0:43:12]: You're coming up on eight years at Agentero.

Callan [0:43:16]: Mh.

Callan [0:43:16]: By far the longest place that that used to...

Callan [0:43:20]: Like, by today's standards?

Callan [0:43:21]: That's a...

Callan [0:43:22]: That's a lifetime.

Ido [0:43:24]: Oh, yeah

Callan [0:43:24]: at at one business.

Callan [0:43:25]: Mh.

Ido [0:43:26]: What is it about?

Ido [0:43:27]: But, especially just out it's like, those years since startups ups.

Ido [0:43:30]: But

Callan [0:43:30]: Oh, a hundred percent.

Callan [0:43:31]: Yeah You...

Callan [0:43:31]: You're...

Callan [0:43:31]: Like, you've lived two lives.

Callan [0:43:32]: Yeah.

Callan [0:43:33]: Why why?

Callan [0:43:34]: What is it about Agentero that, keeps you excited, you know, keeps you, like, in this as you kinda talked about this state of growing and being challenged.

Callan [0:43:46]: What is it?

Ido [0:43:47]: I mean, why Agentero, initially, I think it's the people, Louis, which I joined him as second employee is is great.

Ido [0:43:55]: It's fun working with him and then the team that we hired is amazing and all the hard things that smarter people than we need to do.

Ido [0:44:03]: I have I've hired smarter up than meet people that could do those things.

Ido [0:44:06]: So I'm...

Ido [0:44:07]: I keep my own challenges, but have really, really strong team to do a lot of the things that I could think about what we need to do and what are the metrics you need to move.

Ido [0:44:16]: But they will eventually doing in in a in a great way.

Ido [0:44:20]: So And, you know, this is this is one way that keeps me going, real really strong team really fun to work with.

Ido [0:44:26]: The other thing is we are always building new things, and I'm...

Ido [0:44:31]: As said, I'm a builder.

Ido [0:44:32]: So producer flow is the new the new thing that comes up Like, I saw a challenge.

Ido [0:44:36]: I have the room in this company to build new things, which is exciting.

Ido [0:44:41]: I love to build...

Ido [0:44:42]: I I love to create new things.

Ido [0:44:44]: Love the build things from scratch, especially on the go to marketing, I love to experiment more, like, as Agentero becomes...

Ido [0:44:51]: We have this machine it's working.

Ido [0:44:52]: We experiment more, but it's working and it's predictable and we know what's going on.

Ido [0:44:57]: We always to improve, but it's there.

Ido [0:44:58]: If it stayed this way, I would probably bored and, like, you know, eight years and try to look for my own thing.

Ido [0:45:06]: But then I found a new problem to solve, I managed to convince the team to solve it.

Ido [0:45:11]: The team saw it in similar eyes, and we built a new product, and now we are going to market it with a thor new or the install new product, total new set of challenges.

Ido [0:45:21]: So it's like building a new company.

Ido [0:45:23]: So, yes, eight years at Agentero, but both first, within Agentero, it's probably, like, with people that, like, three or four times until we got to to the market where we are.

Ido [0:45:33]: So it's, like, almost, like, building through different four companies.

Ido [0:45:35]: This is just regular startup.

Ido [0:45:37]: That's why I say, it's like, dog years.

Ido [0:45:39]: You build a lot of different things and you change and you favor So this is part of the fun.

Ido [0:45:42]: For me at least.

Ido [0:45:43]: Right?

Ido [0:45:44]: Like, this is this is part of what gets me going.

Ido [0:45:46]: And then I have a room to to build new things.

Ido [0:45:48]: Right?

Ido [0:45:49]: So we're building a new product going to market.

Ido [0:45:51]: This is exciting.

Ido [0:45:52]: I don't need to go to another company to do it.

Ido [0:45:54]: Or now I have it here.

Ido [0:45:55]: When this one happened, maybe I'll find for something else.

Ido [0:45:58]: Look for something else or do something differently, But, yeah, it's it's really fun.

Ido [0:46:03]: Really fun building.

Ido [0:46:04]: I really enjoy that.

Ido [0:46:05]: So that's why I'm That's why I'm going in eight years.

Ido [0:46:08]: Probably do a couple more.

Callan [0:46:11]: Well, it look, it makes sense.

Callan [0:46:12]: I mean, you enjoyed early, and it's been a rocket ship.

Callan [0:46:16]: So I I hear you on that.

Callan [0:46:18]: Like, there has been they say a high growth start every six months, it's a totally different company.

Callan [0:46:22]: You know, just most people can't keep that growth right where you guys have, and you can continue to get that.

Callan [0:46:27]: So it it does actually make complete sense.

Callan [0:46:30]: You know, last question I have for you.

Callan [0:46:32]: And I'm curious if this is different than the first time he answered it.

Callan [0:46:34]: U.

Callan [0:46:35]: But if you could have a conversation with your younger self?

Callan [0:46:37]: Age up to you, what would that conversation be?

Callan [0:46:41]: What advice would you give them?

Callan [0:46:43]: Wow.

Ido [0:46:45]: That stuff.

Ido [0:46:45]: I don't remember what I told you last time.

Ido [0:46:47]: What would I give my younger self probably said the same.

Ido [0:46:51]: What now I think It's just gonna be okay.

Ido [0:46:54]: Going through things.

Ido [0:46:55]: I mentioned, like, my first company eighteen months, not making any dollar.

Ido [0:46:59]: It was very tough, very tough mentally, but also, like, just doing.

Ido [0:47:03]: It'll be okay.

Ido [0:47:05]: You know, like, going through so many things, you learn so much from everything that you're are doing.

Ido [0:47:09]: So...

Ido [0:47:10]: Yeah.

Ido [0:47:10]: Keep doing, it'll be okay.

Ido [0:47:12]: I think it worked as a mantra for my career for my life so far, but back then, especially with my first experiences and when those things happen, you always feel like it's the end of the world.

Ido [0:47:22]: So I feel like the...

Ido [0:47:24]: This is the advice I would give myself.

Callan [0:47:26]: It's funny because when you look back on how many of those things that happened at that time, and I'm not trying to, like, downplay, like, how much that was painful...

Callan [0:47:36]: How painful that was and how much that sucked, But you just think, like, Mh.

Callan [0:47:40]: This is it.

Callan [0:47:41]: I'm done.

Callan [0:47:41]: Like, I'll never come back from.

Callan [0:47:42]: Whatever this thing is and yet you do every time.

Callan [0:47:45]: Yeah.

Ido [0:47:47]: Yes.

Ido [0:47:47]: Exactly.

Callan [0:47:48]: So I love that.

Ido [0:47:50]: You just do it.

Ido [0:47:50]: Right?

Ido [0:47:51]: You just do it real okay.

Ido [0:47:52]: Like, just try.

Ido [0:47:53]: If you don't...

Ido [0:47:54]: If you don't try, how would you know?

Ido [0:47:55]: Yeah.

Ido [0:47:55]: And you learn so much with everything.

Ido [0:47:57]: So I think that's...

Ido [0:47:58]: That helps you learn that helps you grow that teaches you so many things that creates your personality and who you are?

Ido [0:48:05]: I'll be a totally different person today if I didn't experience those things.

Ido [0:48:09]: Yeah.

Ido [0:48:09]: So I think, you know.

Ido [0:48:11]: But at the moment, you feel like...

Ido [0:48:13]: Yeah.

Ido [0:48:13]: This the end of the worst time.

Ido [0:48:14]: The, like, there there were so many moments where I was, like, you know?

Ido [0:48:18]: Giving up.

Ido [0:48:20]: I didn't.

Ido [0:48:21]: Right?

Ido [0:48:21]: Yeah eventually.

Ido [0:48:22]: But, yeah, it's...

Ido [0:48:23]: That's definitely the piece of advice I would give.

Callan [0:48:25]: I love it.

Callan [0:48:26]: You, perfect place to wrap it up.

Callan [0:48:28]: Thanks for coming on today was blast.

Ido [0:48:30]: Yeah.

Ido [0:48:30]: It was fine.

Ido [0:48:30]: Thanks, Scott.

Ido [0:48:31]: Sorry.

Callan [0:48:39]: I hope you enjoyedIdo and I's conversation.

Callan [0:48:41]: I love talking through this.

Callan [0:48:44]: Because I think it's one of those underutilized areas.

Callan [0:48:47]: It's an area where you can really test and learn just like Eos said, and it gives you an additional outlet gives you another channel to acquire agencies through.

Callan [0:48:56]: This is huge in B, but you just don't see it as much at b in in insurance.

Callan [0:49:01]: A lot of people use it but in insurance.

Callan [0:49:02]: I thought it was super interesting.

Callan [0:49:04]: Wanna learn more about It, you could find him on Linkedin in the show notes.

Callan [0:49:08]: Also, if you like this episode, you could find me on Linkedin to let me know.

Callan [0:49:12]: And if you really wanna support the show, give us a follow on Youtube give us a review an Apple podcast or spotify, we would greatly appreciate it.

Callan [0:49:21]: Thanks for listening everybody, and we'll see you next week.

Ido [0:49:30]: Thanks